Someone sent me a question to ask me about Genneva Gold Sdn Bhd.
According to the information on the website, Genneva Gold sells you Gold Bullion at a 2% discount to the market price with a buy-back guarantee.
At the end of one month, the buyer can
- Sell buy the gold to Genneva Gold at the market price based on the time he bought (thus making an immediate 2% profit)
- Keep the Gold Bullion.
- Rollover. Meaning do step one and buy a new Gold Bullion at a 2% discount to the current market price.
The deal seems too good to be true because the company is essentially selling you gold at a 2% discount and giving you a free put option.
There doesn’t seem to be any downside for the investor. If the price of gold goes down, he can sell it back to the company. If the price of gold goes up, he can keep the gold and sell it on a secondary market by himself.
genneva gold
Anyone considering this investment should ask important questions like:
- How does Genneva Gold generate revenue/profit from this entire transaction?
- Assuming an investor does just the bare minimum and rollovers his investment for 12 months, he would have made a 24% return. How does Genneva Gold substain this payout?
- How do you verify that the gold you receive is worth its weight in gold?
There is a “Terms and Conditions” to the 2% discount thing though. I would be interested to know what they are.
2599 comments
Newbie says:
July 3, 2011 at 5:18 pm (UTC 8)
I have been asked to invest and have spent a few hours trying to skim through the whole forum looking for evidence that would support my investment decision. This forum has all the pros and cons about Genneva and it is the top few sites that pop up during a search of Genneva on yahoo. Unfortunately, the pros make it sounds like a ponzi and the cons are largely being crowded out by Genneva warriors trying to swamp the forum.
The summary thread at the top of the forum is SERIOUSLY outdated. I think it should include the following facts concerning Genneva so that new comers can understand the business at a glance:
1. Based on the price on Genneva website ($83/gram) and UOB price (Buy: $58.61, Sell: $64.19) today (3 July 2011), Genneva is selling at 29% above UOB price. If Genneva collapse, investor will suffer 41% loss if sold to UOB.
2. Three out for four Directors are being investigated for money laundering and illegal deposit taking (http://www.bnm.gov.my/microsites/fraudalert/0301_status.htm). Trial is still ongoing.
3. Genneva does not have an investment manager license from MAS. Genneva is claiming not to be an investment management company although they are seem to be offering a fixed income investment program with a promised return. MAS has placed Genneva on the Investor Alert List along with other ponzi schemes such as Sunshine Empire. (http://www.moneysense.gov.sg/check_our_list/Consumer_Portal_IAL.html)
4. Genneva has not filed accounts since 2009 and has been red flagged by ACRA (http://www.acra.gov.sg/). I wonder what is the reason for that.
There are a few more things that causes concern after reading the documents:
1. Payments to Genneva are made to a so-called Collecting Agent, Samudra-GV Pte Ltd. However, the promise to buy-back if from Genneva Pte Ltd. Technically, Genneva can shut down and Samudra-GV Pte Ltd is not obligated to fulfill the liabilities of Genneva.
2. The contract of Genneva says will buy-back during the buy-back period, provided the company is operating on that day. Yes! Genneva has the right not to buy back on Saturdays and Sundays. By this logic, they also have the right to close shop from Monday to Friday and you can’t accuse them of any wrong-doing. Once your 7 day buy back period is up, the company has the right now to buy back already.
Newbie says:
July 3, 2011 at 5:25 pm (UTC 8)
The forum should ban all the advertisers. They are clearly not adding value to the discussion.
Lee Mei May says:
July 4, 2011 at 2:25 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Newbie,
From the due diligence conducted by your goodself, I find that on the balance of probability, you would shy away from the goldco. Just to add some food for thought.
1. Genneva Sdn Bhd was raided by Bank Negara Malaysia (BNM) on 21/07/2009 (nearly 2 years ago and had its operation suspended and its directors and ex-directors investigated;
2. Arising from the investigation, 3 of its director and one ex-director were charged in court, initially under the Anti-Money Laundering Act (AMLA) and latter added on the charge for deposit taking under the Banking and Financial Institutions Act;
3. The Goldco had collected more than RM67 million from customers under a “Parked-in” scheme, where after the gold had been paid in full by the customer, the goldco was supposed to have the gold parked in their premises/vault;
4. At the beginning of the case mention, it was reported by the Star that the frozen account only have RM20 million and 5 Kg of gold seized by BNM;
5. In Sept 2009, Samudra Sdn. Bhd. started its operation and the Genneva customers who holds the gold was offered the “opportunity” to sell their gold to a “third party” buyer at a 20% discount on their purchase price, despite the fact that Genneva Sdn. Bhd had a Black and White “Buy Back Guarantee”. The “Third Party” buyer is one of those owned by the outfit.
6. On 15/12/2010, The Shariah Compliant Platform was launched with great fun fare by Genneva Malaysia Sdn. Bhd. and the customers accounts were forcibly and unilaterally migrated from Samudra GV to Genneva Malaysia Sdn. Bhd. in April 2011.
7.The goldco does not have any other revenue stream and its business model is fully dependent on later customers to pay for earlier customers “rebate”
8. Their income is only from the profit they make on the sale of gold and from this, they have to pay,
7.1 the rebate to the customers;
7.2 the agents’/consutants’ commission;
7.3 operational and overhead costs.
The above give a peep into the goldco that you are contemplating putting your money into. Happy gold investing.
Merigold says:
July 7, 2011 at 12:09 am (UTC 8)
Hi Newbie,
I will not go into details like Lee Mei May who is obviously against Genneva/GoldCo all the way, but my thought is, at the end of the day it is entirely your own decision. You should know the pro and cons by now since you spend few hours reading this forum. I am like you before, read this forum before I made my decision.
I could not answer your questions #3 pertaining MAS and #4 pertaining ACRA because I am from Malaysia, and also not sure about Genneva operation in Singapore. However, I am fully aware of the Directors being charged even before I decided to buy the gold from Samudra-GV, now is Genneva. For me, a company director being charge is no issue to me, because I am holding on the gold. Anyway, in Malaysia, it is open secret, everyone knows about it even the customers.
And to counter your concern about what happens if Genneva close shop for up to 7 days which cause the 7 days buy back time frame to lapse…I guess then they really need to decide which 7 days they want to close as all customers enter the contract at different time and date. In my opinion, once they close, I don’t think they will open back again..hee
Maybe I am a risk taker, however, I know my risk is about 25-30% (referring in Malaysia) with Gold in my hand, and my risk will be 100% during the waiting time for gold to be delivered into my hand.
Even if you buy gold from bank or gold savings accounts, it comes with this clause: Investments in gold and silver are not guaranteed by the Bank and are subject to investment risks, including the possible loss of the principal amount invested. Value of the investments and administrative fees can go up or down, depending on the fluctuations in international and/or local gold and silver markets and foreign exchange market.
So at the end of the day, it’s your choice. If you feels the scheme is attractive but worried of the above, then I suggest either you do not enter at all or purchase only small amount, because despite all the allegation, skeptics and debates from the forumers in here since year 2009, Genneva in Singapore and Malaysia still operating until today, it just along the way, the company had to change to adapt current situation, like Lee Mai May said, ever changing like a chameleon…Genneva Sdn Bhd to Samudra-GV Sdn Bhd then to Genneva Malayisa Sdn Bhd. But I am fine with it.
All the best.
Merigold
Newbie says:
July 13, 2011 at 5:01 pm (UTC 8)
Mr Martin Lee,
Would you mind to add the facts (in my first post) into the summary thread on top? I think that would be helpful to people searching for quick information. Thanks.
Merigold,
Thanks for your reply. I think your mentality is correct when you mention: “Maybe I am a risk taker, however, I know my risk is about 25-30% (referring in Malaysia) with Gold in my hand, and my risk will be 100% during the waiting time for gold to be delivered into my hand.” Perhaps we can also add the waiting time before your sell back cheque is cleared.
This type of risk is common with leveraged financial products in Singapore. That is why MAS needs to regulate financial products and the people who sell them. Without regulations, agents (particularly the bad ones) are not required to explain the risk to clients. Some agents even posted here saying “there is no risk because the gold is in your hands”.
I have no objections with you buying gold from them since you are clear about what you are getting into. However, if what Lee May Mei said was true about the goldco not having any revenue stream other than selling gold at premium, the business model will not sustain. All the best to you mate, i think it is just a matter of time but i hope i am wrong.
Martin Lee says:
July 13, 2011 at 6:52 pm (UTC 8)
Newbie, I have added a link to your comment.
Kardashan says:
July 5, 2011 at 2:16 am (UTC 8)
A test water to decrease comm to 0.4% is on the board, the last time they test the 0.5% by incorporate it in a promotion is now reality, now 0.4% is on the test.
KC says:
July 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm (UTC 8)
I just bought last month. Today the “consultant” (he’s a friend whom I trust) gave me the gold dinar and told me I can redeem my money anytime. I made about RM336 last month. This is my second month. You are right about raising doubts on the authenticity of the gold dinar. Is it really worth its weight in gold? Now I am biting my fingers.
Sudra says:
July 6, 2011 at 6:43 am (UTC 8)
The question is not so much on the authenticy of the gold, is about you buying it 25% more than the original market price. Yes u made RM336 (1.5-2%) but when r u recovering your cost?
Merigold says:
July 6, 2011 at 6:51 pm (UTC 8)
Hi KC,
No need to bite your fingers
If your concern is about the authenticity of the gold dinar or the gold that you get from Genneva Malaysia, it’s simple to solve. Just send your piece to FEDMAS office to assay. FEDMAS is an government owned independant 3rd party assayer lab who assay metal components. For more information, visit http://www.fedmas.com.my
I have send mine to the Old Klang Road branch to assay, and it is geniune and a certificate is issued. If you want to see how the cert look like, go to http://mygoldgoose.wordpress.com if I not mistaken, I saw the scan image of the cert in one of the presentation which you can download. This goldgoose site have a lot of information about Genneva Malaysia. Of course this site is created for information purposes, so do not expect to read any hot debate issues like here…which is informative and entertaining as well.
cheers…Merigold
Pat Lu says:
August 4, 2011 at 3:21 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Merigold,
Strangely, my reply to point to the site where the Certificate of Confirmation to the purity of Genneva gold bullion is located has not been approved since this morning.
Anyway, google or search for Genneva Gold – Too Good to be True? at mygoldgoose . wordpress . com – you’ll see the images there.
Cheers and have a great day!
Pat Lu (012) 210-4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
ZhenQ says:
February 1, 2012 at 1:37 am (UTC 8)
Pat Lu,
As a senior consultant for the Goldco , and having received commissions from your clients’ purchases, it’s obvious that you would choose to ignore the fact that the company is under investigation and the case is still ongoing.
MyGoldGoose says:
August 4, 2011 at 3:23 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Merigold,
Strangely, my reply to point to the site where the Certificate of Confirmation to the purity of Genneva gold bullion is located has not been approved since this morning.
Anyway, google or search for Genneva Gold – Too Good to be True? at mygoldgoose . wordpress . com – you’ll see the images there.
Cheers and have a great day!
Pat Lu (012) 210-4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
TALK IS CHEAP says:
July 6, 2011 at 12:34 am (UTC 8)
Lee Mei May, Wise Man, Voice Above Noises and the rest……..
WHY WASTE YOUR SALIVA HERE……YOU GUYS SHOULD WRITE TO THE PRESS AND LET THE AUTHORITY INVOLVE AND INVESTIGATE…………….STOP WASTING YOUR TIMES HERE
Nathan Kadair says:
July 6, 2011 at 6:55 pm (UTC 8)
Why not you do it on behalf of us? No one knows how to do this.
Z says:
July 7, 2011 at 11:24 am (UTC 8)
Why there is a sudden silent death? Where is all the v.a.n, Sudra etc went? Put everything aside, look beyond the horizon, look at the world economy? 1st question to Sudra? How r u doing in yr investment? What is yr average? FD? How much?
2nd question to all? Have any of our mother on grand mother ever lose money by keeping gold? Do u also know how much r u all being charge when u buy at the traditional shop? By buying with any modern or traditional co. The most important thing is to hold the physical thing at anytime of time, it is still the most acceptable exchange in the world. Lately, why is there so many GOLD VENDING machines sproting up? Why is advance country asking their citizen to stock up GOLD? Why is China being relax of it Citizen to buy gold, rather encouraging them to buy in any country n bring it home? They r tons of reason why the world is buying it. At a religious point of view, “it is the Gold that u hold measures yr Wealth” I rest my own reason to hold it than to hold anything else.
Lee Mei May says:
July 8, 2011 at 12:36 am (UTC 8)
Dear Z and Merigold,
In this age of super inflation and QE2 (which just ended and maybe QE3 on the horizon) and countries economy collapsing one after another owing to their rulers throwing prudence to the wind, it is a safe bet to buy gold and keep as an insurance.
I have been advocating the buying and keeping of physical gold as a hedge against the vagaries of fiat currency. However, due to the history of the various goldcos, including many which had left their clients in the lurch such as TigNet, TGL and Genneva Sdn. Bhd (advisory by Bank Negara Malaysia with name mentioned), it is prudent to approach such goldcos with caution.
The definition of a ponzi is that the scheme pays the earlier customers from the proceeds of the new customers and invariably they have no other source of income.
To confuse the public and customers they carry out a lot of internal fund transfers and their accounts are a maze to navigate.
Does the goldco have any other income scheme? Pat Lu tried to flog the idea their GMSB is into gold refining and gold hedging. Is it true? Please see my previous postings.
Is the goldco financial model sustainable?
Comparison between buying from gold wholesalers and Goldco
Wholesaler Goldco
1. Buying price, above spot 3 – 8% 25 – 28%
2. Selling price, below spot 5% At purchase price
3. Certificat of origin yes No, only owner cert.
4. Hallmark gold? yes, 999.9 999
6. Discount/hibah No Yes
7. Gold delivery cod 2 days, can be constuctive
Case study based on last year (2010)
Gold price increase in 2010 = 28%
Goldco pays incentive at 2% = 24%
Assuming the buyer buys on 01/01/2010 and sells on 31/12/2010 (theoretical ignoring weekends and public holidays), buyer makes 28 – 8 = 20%
If during the year, buyer trades by selling high and buying low, he/she can make more.
The risks with the goldco are :
1. The 2 days taken to deliver the gold after full payment;
2. Hibah is discretionary and except for “promotions” it is at 1.5% (from historical records – don’t know where this record comes from since the goldco only started with the shariah compliant platform this year
3. If the goldco goes belly up like a few predecessors, either by voluntary liquidation or BNM raids, invited or otherwise, unless the buyer have collected hibah for more than 2 years, he/she will be losing due to the following :
3.1 Hibah at 1.5% for 2 years is 36%. Without the certificate of origin, buyer will only pay at spot less 10 – 20%
3.2 If the buyer is caught during the 2 days without the gold, then he/she losses all
3.3 Delivery of physical gold is discretionary. Please read your contract which says that the seller can deliver the gold constructively, meaning when they give you the certificate of ownership, delivery is deemed to have been effected;
3.4 Hibah is discretionary and subject to some “banking” charges;
3.5 The gold at 999 is not the 999.9 hallmark gold though there are many who had received the 999.9 hallmark gold but without the certificate of origin.
In the end it is the consultants and the goldco who are making the money and the customers carrying the risks. Notice that the recent “promotions” are for new customers with the objective of expanding the customers and customers’ data base so that in future the goldco can do away with the consultants. They already recruited and have on their payroll a team of “customer service” personnels who can take over the need arise. I had used the term “addicted”, not in a derogatory way, but more to highlight the fact that most consultants depend fully on the goldco for their livelihood and life-style – Home mortgage/rental, car instalments, holidays, children studying overseas and household expenses and therefore cannot under any circumstance walk away from the goldco, however demeaning the treatment meted out to them.
Lastly, let me assure you that :
1. I am pro-gold;
2. I am distressed to see the agony of those who were victims of floundered goldcos which operate with similar business models which fits the definition of “ponzi”;
3. Genneva Sdn. Bhd. still owes the “Park-in” customers more that RM67 million with only RM20 million in their frozen account and 5 kg of gold sequestered by BNM
4. The PDRM was said to be “tailgating” the goldco but somewhere along the line already loss sight of their goldco and so the tale go on;
4. The goldco had earlier claimed approval by BNM but later have to retract that claim;
5. The goldco and their smart lawyer is trying to claim the “last man standing” in the gold trading business by saying that the Minister of Finance is going to sign an Act to allow gold trading to be only carried out by “Schedule Businesses”. But the submission made by the goldco and noted by BNM is not for gold trading but only for “leasing and factoring”. So there is “No man standing”.
The standard operating procedure of the goldco is to make comparison with FD, mutual funds, share market, forex and casinos which is totally irrelevant due to the following :
1. FD is giving low return and even then the capital is not totally protected;
2. mutual funds, share market and forex are zero sum games with
winner + agent commission = loser
3. Casinos are always the winners.
So the comparable option is to buy gold which becomes your asset and not having other people’s asset as the liability. Happy gold buying
Wylan Goh says:
July 8, 2011 at 12:58 am (UTC 8)
Z and Marigold,
yes keeping gold is safest when times like these, the question is why buy from a company that sells 25% higher and redeem back in segments of 1.5% over every month? It takes more than a year to fully redeem that 25% if the company dont belly up. Then secondly, why buy 25% higher for the gold that wasnt hallmark and no certificate whereby other goldcos sells PAMP with certs and a few ringgit lower and redeems 2.5% every month, or simply buy it on a out right purchase from any goldcos with much lower price even than FGJAM. is it that genneva’s lawyer says that MOF will clamp everyone except them? Well… how about PDRM could clamp genneva and not everyone else?
THINK ABOUT IT
volk says:
July 11, 2011 at 2:12 am (UTC 8)
GMSB thinks they are the lord of gold here in Malaysia but PDRM is lord of the law.
Z says:
July 8, 2011 at 2:07 pm (UTC 8)
Well said, Lim. In a world we live in this days. Can we not want to have more extra income to sustain our family n our future retirement fund. I wld not agree with u saying that the mutual fund is not able to make money rather the other way. If u have enough. What say I can show u what is the returns u can get from them. Were u once bitten? Or rather it is just yr own story? Maybe u heard from yr friend? In that case, I believe u have no alternative but to keep working till u drop dead? I’m sorry to say that. I agree that out of 20 or 30 funds, there will be a lot that didn’t perform well because of economical or political situation n many others reason, but there r still some great ones that give u consistent returns which is better than FD, provided that u r still not really satisfied. There r many banks in our country that can help or rather share their bounty returns by doing special funds for the public? I am not from any bkng line. But I am sure there r ways to help the public to make more out of their money in the bank. Yet
Think nobody is willing to do that, some would like to but they may be prevented to do sonin order to protect the rest of the greedy lots just like one comment from a member who had bkng experience n used to work for them before. Imagine one bnk with the platform to do gold n they have the bkng licence to collect money were to set up a Gold saving ac. Where all ac holder can buy at a split payment of 10-12 months, then they own the gold, on top of that. If the bnk r people conscience n a big hearted ones, they can afford to give them some bonus/interest. If anyone ask how? Then I believe. As we can see at any of the gold spot price where people play the dangerous Margin game. The bank can actually take stock low n sell when the r easily 2-5% profit. Why does the margin player loss is because they cannot afford to take stock. By the way, the bnk only deliver the gold to the holder when they fully paid it at a 6-12months period. Any comment frm the expert r welcome. I am not a expert, rather A “smart Alec” which I look at how the price of gold is going. I still think it is a good thong to hedge against the inflation entity. Wish the BNM will regulate the industry like they used to do for the MF on the 80′s. Before that, can anyone tell me what is the traditional shop making by selling a piece of fanciful gold that u love to have? Percentage?
kardashan says:
July 13, 2011 at 9:12 pm (UTC 8)
Hibah being late again, whats going on? The staff blamed it on CIMB, is it so?
Nathan Kadair says:
July 15, 2011 at 11:15 am (UTC 8)
Oh it’s CIMB again? Then if they are so inefficient why are they still banking with them? Would Public Bank be better? LOL
Sean says:
July 15, 2011 at 11:18 am (UTC 8)
Aiyo change to public bank la, Uncle Teh will will give them best service. Haha
Dari Sekinchan says:
July 15, 2011 at 2:24 pm (UTC 8)
company no more money say so lah! blame CIMB for what?
nur says:
July 15, 2011 at 3:08 pm (UTC 8)
good luck to u agents if they dont bankrupt.
Lee Mei May says:
July 15, 2011 at 3:39 pm (UTC 8)
The miracle is going to happen. Gold price is going up. All the hibah the goldco had invested in the customers and consultants is going to bear fruit as the all the gold the goldco sold are being held in trust and the huge profit they reap during contract renewal will be more than enough to keep them afloat and what with all the new customers being attracted by the promotion. Remember, Benny Madoff lasted more than 20 years because even though a lot of people knows that it is a ponsi but were hoping it is not them who will get hurt. Same here with all the consultants, who may now be “playing” with foreign capital. So, CUSTOMERS BEWARE – LAST IN, FIRST HURT.
son of gold says:
July 19, 2011 at 3:50 am (UTC 8)
when the migrations due in the next 3-4 months from now, the gold spot buying price is expected to reach the same as everyone migrated, between 180-184 per gram, so why should we sell back to Genneva and worry about the payment, all should sell it outside for instant cash.
carrie says:
August 4, 2011 at 6:57 pm (UTC 8)
I’m a finance person and I can understand that during rollout of the direct credit, there will be teething problems due to incorrect, incomplete and omission of information. In the following month after the rollout, in July, they have sorted out all the kinks and most customer including myself have received the hibah without any issue.
Lee Mei May says:
August 7, 2011 at 12:14 am (UTC 8)
Surprise! surprise! for a “finance person” not to be able to equate a business model which depends on new purchases to finance old purchases and has no other income with a scam/ponzi.
Discretionary Hibah;
Capital protected without “guaranteed buyback” clause in agreement;
Continuous promotion;
Refusal to allow client withdrawal at end of tenure.
What does all these add up to? Pat Lu’s GoldGoose? Can Pat Lu guarantee the scheme is “capital protected”? Is Pat Lu even aware that customers had been refused :buy back” at the end of the tenure?
Can Pat Lu tell the “Park- In” customers how guaranteed their capital is? Wake up or it is going to be too late. Maybe it is already too late.
Wylan Goh says:
July 19, 2011 at 11:09 am (UTC 8)
Have any consultants recieved e-mail from the company on a mass recall of gold from customers lately? I m keeping my fingers crossed if this is not another Tig-Net Gold stunt they trying to pull. For info of those who dont know, Tig-Net Gold had recalled gold from customers and dissapeared after that and it became a police case.
Uncle Gold says:
July 19, 2011 at 11:53 am (UTC 8)
there were several emails sent out recently and one of which is confusing us. They said they want to impliment a micro-dot data engrain into the gold bar, in Malaysia may not have such facility yet and means they will have to send the gold elsewhere to do so, which also means they have to take sometime to do it and customers have to do without the gold for a week or two? sounds so tig net. They even put a picture of 2 gold bar with same serial number and two different colour tone , labelled one as genuine and the other fake. then later they retract and relabelled it as both with identical number, what are they trying to say? is the other bar fake or is genuine gold but imposed the same number by mistake or what? i m getting very careful with them, many things dont sounds right even from months back ever since they impose a snap migration and KC sets himself loose.. Be very extra careful fellas.
Nathan Kadair says:
July 19, 2011 at 5:20 pm (UTC 8)
Since the other goldcos previously had done their hocus-pocus acts, ie. GSB,Bestino,Tig Net ,Dior Gold, Au Niaga and TGL, there’s no room for trust in the companies. Always have gold with you at all time. The goldcos are nothing but a gold retailer to you and no gold depositing.
Volk says:
July 19, 2011 at 6:27 pm (UTC 8)
Not to mention that the GMSB directors themselves has their ‘black’ history and their troubles are not over yet.
Pat Lu says:
July 29, 2011 at 8:32 am (UTC 8)
Hi Wylan,
Yes, received the email, sent the gold back for datadot and received the gold back too.
FYI, DataDots are tiny microscopic discs (microdots) that contain unique information linked to the product, recognized as being on the most effective ways to prevent theft and duplication. As small as a grain of sand, Datadots can be detected via a UV light, providing absolute proof of product, and supplying an additional layer of security.
Those who seek more details – I’m just a call away.
Cheers!
Pat Lu (012) 210 4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
SH Lee says:
July 19, 2011 at 1:47 pm (UTC 8)
TQ for this forum.
I certainly am more enlightened and can understand how it operates.
Better not think about the high interest! – Risk is too high.
Magnum PI says:
July 20, 2011 at 12:53 am (UTC 8)
Mr.Lee,
buying and keeping gold is a good idea especially in the uncertain financial times but however buying gold on a 25% higher markup than the original price is not favorable, although this goldco gives rebates 1.5% or 2% per month is still not favorable because you need almost a year to fully collect back that 25% over paid assuming the goldco dont belly up first. Many goldcos in the market sells outright with the pricing below FGJAM (federation of goldsmith) pricing which is way below goldco pricing governed by Gold-Beam.
By purchasing gold on outright basis you pay the lower recomended pricing and the natural appreciation of gold will automatically contributes to your capital gain rather than paying upfront of higher price and wait to collect it back month to month and worrying about the goldco would stop honouring your investment at end of the day.
suntoch singh says:
July 20, 2011 at 1:31 am (UTC 8)
Hi people of the forum.
I am a outright gold investor, i buy gold on a outright fashion and not overpaying to gain it back month to month especially on 1.5% per month which i think its kind of stupid. I have put my money on a gold bar paid outright 4 months ago at 133 per gram, now the sell back price is at 153 per gram, its an instant RM20 per gram gain which is more than 1.5% per month mind you. So why are people still wet their heads into the overpaying schemes and get it back over 6 months?
CCWK says:
July 29, 2011 at 2:55 pm (UTC 8)
Suntoch,
Woh a margin of 15%, however did you manage to sell your gold at 153 per gram? Who will be your potential buyers? Appreciate you can share?
BBQ says:
July 20, 2011 at 3:34 pm (UTC 8)
As we can see there is another gimmick after the last snap migration which pointed out to curb fake gold, to try make some sense here is they are trying to convert all those S&P which bears the item 2.5 which obligates them to buy back, after the so called recall they would have an opportunity to convert the S&P to new new version which deletes the item 2.5 , thus when it’s due they can decline buy back and you as investors bears the extra 25% overpayment. If you ask me why would they so eager to decline buy back? In my mind I can only think of short of funds, unless you have a better reason why they would decline buy back? At the same time if it’s required top up then they will have another shot of making fast money injection which later investors may not get it back if they decline buy back. All the company’s doings very clearly pointing out that they are running dry. Should you surrender your gold back to them, be very cautious.
Happy gold investing.
Sean says:
July 20, 2011 at 8:15 pm (UTC 8)
the co will be changing the contract when the recall takes place? is there any top up ?
BBQ says:
July 21, 2011 at 2:07 am (UTC 8)
No confirmation yet on the change of contract and top up on the recall, what I mean is the co could do that.
Serene Sia says:
July 23, 2011 at 2:55 am (UTC 8)
never trust the company. only trust the gold , no gold no trust.
Sudra says:
July 25, 2011 at 11:00 am (UTC 8)
Speaking of trust, the company decline buy back for my client’s gold when due worth 2kgs,so what trust is there?
Lee Mei May says:
July 26, 2011 at 1:17 am (UTC 8)
Dear Sudra,
If your client’s contract is due in July 2011, it only means that your client’s have purchased the gold from SGV either in January 2011 (on 6 months tenure) or July 2010 (on 12 months tenure).
Your client could have commited the sin of not migrating to GMSB in April/May 2011. But your client may still be able to hold the goldco responsible for the buy back as there is mentioned a Ng Poh Weng company/factory by the name of xxxxx Ratus which will do the buy back. However, you have to be sure that :
1. Your client had given the required 7 days notice of termination;
2. Your client had exercised the option within the 7 days window;
3. Your client have all the originals of the documents relating to the purchase.
Anyway, at the rate gold prices is going up, even if there is no buyback, your client may not be losing any money if he/she wait till the end of the year to sell.
That is the price of paying high GoldBeam inflated prices for gold.
Sudra says:
July 26, 2011 at 1:31 am (UTC 8)
They decline buy back in May, the due date coincide with the migration period. Because of the exorbitant top ups that deters my client to renew.The company said either second (renew) or they decline buy back. Anyway it’s old story now. However even the gold had been sold outside recently there were not much loss luckily. It’s the integrity that the company reflects.
Sudra says:
July 26, 2011 at 1:39 am (UTC 8)
The phrase I wrote as second is migration.
Carrie says:
July 26, 2011 at 12:10 pm (UTC 8)
Subra,
I have gone through the migration and have not lost any gold nor money. GMSB honors the old contract by giving returning the balance of the % difference in the current hibah commencing in July’11.
I think the migration is good for the customer and for the company from a legal standpoint. Nobody wants to get busted due to non compliance with the law.
Wylan Goh says:
July 26, 2011 at 11:57 pm (UTC 8)
Well Carrie, not everyone is shortchanged by the company, however there are some unlucky few so to speak, i too have known someone was declined buy back during refusal to migrate, he has 3.7Kgs but thanks to the recent uptrend in gold has almost break even the loses, somehow it will reflects on the integrity of the company.
Hang Jebat says:
July 27, 2011 at 12:04 pm (UTC 8)
Is the refusal to migrate is alredy finished the 6 month due and complete documentation and procedures?
facts up says:
July 27, 2011 at 2:05 am (UTC 8)
Anyone here knows anything about a company called Dinarius Dirham Gbl?
Uncle Gold says:
July 27, 2011 at 9:30 am (UTC 8)
Dear facts up,
This company you mentioned has lost it’s popularity and integrity due to it’s failure to deliver. It has lost it since many years back and I think is still in operations. One of it’s company’s owner has laft the partnership and formed another goldco.
The name Dinarius comes from DINAR (islamic gold) and Dirham is the Arabian currency, its was known to genarate a lot of business from the Arabian clientels, so as we can see the owners or ex-owner is very well connected to Arabian world.
Lee Mei May says:
July 27, 2011 at 12:18 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Facts up,
Please go to the Yahoo/google search and input the company name and there is a great deal of information including contacts. Please beware/take care and do your due diligence before committing.
Leang KL says:
July 28, 2011 at 11:00 am (UTC 8)
hello all.
I would like to ask if any of you know why Genneva doesnt give the certificate that comes with the PAMP gold? I have invested 1 kilo when i recieved the gold i was not pleased with the gold that has no cert. The agent did not tell me that their gold has no cert and the staffs said its the company policy that their gold all doesnt comes with a PAMP cert. I prevoiusly bought from Gold Label and also Mysmartgold and all of them provided me certificate of autenticity issued by PAMP itself, why not Genneva? Is their gold supply from a legal chain?
Lee Mei May says:
July 29, 2011 at 6:55 am (UTC 8)
Dear Leang,
The customer is actually holding the gold in trust for Genneva and GMSB not issuing the Certificate of origin is planned for the following purposes :
1. That the customer has to return to GMSB to trade the gold as without the certificate, the price offered outside is much lower and the outside buyer will have to conduct tests to verify its authenticity;
2. Part 2 of the plan is that, in the event the customer does not want to roll over the contract on expiry and insist on withdrawing, GMSB will not “buy back” the gold at the purchase price and the customers has either to sell the gold back to the goldco at 20% discount or face the outside buyer without the certificate.
The survival of the goldco and its business model depends on the customer base snowballing and the goldco profitting from the gold price appreciation.
Cinimon says:
October 3, 2011 at 12:25 am (UTC 8)
I totally disagree with you on this LMM
My reply to your thread in bracket,
Lee Mei May – 1. That the customer has to return to GMSB to trade the gold as without the certificate, the price offered outside is much lower and the outside buyer will have to conduct tests to verify its authenticity;
(I don’t know about you but have you tried selling the gold back to the bank or whichever source it came from? like for example in Singapore that would be UOB. I rightfully own the gold till the day i decide to exercise my sell back option at the guarenteed sell back value.)
Lee Mei May – 2. Part 2 of the plan is that, in the event the customer does not want to roll over the contract on expiry and insist on withdrawing, GMSB will not “buy back” the gold at the purchase price and the customers has either to sell the gold back to the goldco at 20% discount or face the outside buyer without the certificate.
(Have you personally vetted the invoice contract that says clients can sell back the gold to GV only with the conditions of a 20% discout or were you in any case, ever experienced such a condition? I do believe that the conditions of suffering any potential discounted sell back only happens if you were to exercise the sell back after the 7 days period)
Lee Mei May – The survival of the goldco and its business model depends on the customer base snowballing and the goldco profitting from the gold price appreciation.
(In any business at all, which company would surive or expand if they only rely on existing client base? I totally agree with you you that gold companies most profits from the appreciation of the yellow metal. Genneva has been put to the test several times even during the ups and downs of gold pricing during the last 3 years. Sometimes i really do wonder how the industry players like jewerllery shops survive with those high overheads like, rentals, staff salary, inventories and adverts. How do they pay off these high cost? Hmmm, wonder if their business models are dubious in someways. I wonder if Genneva’s sales are better than theirs cos i often pass by their retails and see the sales person sometimes wonder if they are fortunate or unfortunate with the time they have on hand.)
Dear Ms Lee Mei May, no doubt you seem pretty knowledgeable with the market and mathematics fundamentals but many of your thread leaves many question marks with example to the many allegations without substance, like i said in my previous thread, you WERE either a management staff of GV that you seem 100% sure of what you say or you had previously tried formulating, duplicating the business model but failed? Like I mentioned, those were your sepculations and allegations on how the business model runs, what and where are your substance to your allegations?
As for me, I have the capabilities to absorb and cushion the 20% to 27% premium that GV sells their gold at and so if anything goes wrong, I’ll just hold the yellow pieces till we all know and you too believe, gold in time never depreciates due to the economic fundamentals, it may not be such a bad thing after all. By the way, would any retails sell their gold at cost? The banks i am sure marks up their prices too.
Happy buying anything! Buy within your means!
Leang KL says:
July 29, 2011 at 7:49 pm (UTC 8)
If this is the case, the company can burn in hell and the agent can go to hell
Tan says:
July 29, 2011 at 8:21 pm (UTC 8)
You mean until now for so long in this forum you stil don’t know that is the case?
Leang KL says:
August 1, 2011 at 12:33 pm (UTC 8)
No Mr.Tan, this is my first time looking into this website, happened to found it in google. If i report my case to the authoraties, which authoraties should i report to? Would it do any good?
Lee Mei May says:
August 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Leang,
It doesn’t help to report this since the goldco had not committed any legal breach as they are a legal gold trading company doing business under the Shariah compliant platform. You are fortunate that they deliver the physical gold to you since the contract you signed mentioned that they are deemed to have delivered the gold to you by giving you the “Certificate of Ownership” as the contract says that they can deliver the gold “constructively”. If they do that, then you have ground to complain under BAFIA on the basis that they are “deposit taking”.
However, the crunch will come when your tenure expires and if you intend to exit the scheme, the goldco can exercise their discretionary power of not “buying back” at your purchase price, which they have already done to a few customers who wants to withdraw at the end of the tenure. Hound the consultant who sold the scheme to you and tell everybody that this goldco is a scam.
Nathan Kadair says:
July 29, 2011 at 10:57 pm (UTC 8)
Mr .Leang,
I assume you bought the gold last week Friday when you wrote the cheque.(almost a week transition from submission to collection)
On that day the Goldbeam price should be about 192-194
On mysmartgold should be selling at 152-153 if I remembered correctly.
Why would you want to buy from Genneva at 25% higher to gain 1.5% a month when the value of gold appreciates 2.5% a month naturally? (30% annually as shown in Kitco) and not to mention you don’t even get the cert.
I am very sorry to say you’ve been taken for a ride. Now let’s hope by after 6 months the company buys it back at your purchased price and even so you have to pray the company don’t delay your payment after you have surrendered your gold.
Kuching consultant says:
July 29, 2011 at 10:19 pm (UTC 8)
Kuching’s gold deliver delay for more then one month, WTF!
Lee Mei May says:
July 30, 2011 at 12:13 am (UTC 8)
If the gold is not delivered within 3 days after full payment, that is deposit taking and that is an offence under BAFIA. A Scheduled Business for leasing and factoring does not entitle the goldco to take deposit.
But then again they gave you a certificate of ownership and if you look at your contract, giving a certificate of ownership is deemed to have constructively delivered the gold. Head they win tail you lose. But what can consultants do as they are paid commission for the business they brought in. So kena conned by goldco and kena scolded by customers. Is there life with this goldco?
niz says:
July 30, 2011 at 10:58 am (UTC 8)
Wow u delayed one month. I m 2 weeks and i thought mine is the worst.
Kardashan says:
August 1, 2011 at 9:41 pm (UTC 8)
Now GMSB is going into banking business and may not be in trading in gold, it could be in paper investment portfolio which is managed by fund managers. Didn’t they said they are not going to do anything else other than gold trading?
Magnum PI says:
August 1, 2011 at 11:21 pm (UTC 8)
First of all, what GSB,Samudra GV ,GMSB and all other goldcos doing is the platform call Exchange of Funds in Purchaces or commonly known as EFP. Started by a financial institution in Geneva and and their model were copied to the rest of the world, Malaysia and Singapore was happened to be one of them. It is romoured that why GMSB are trying to diversify could be due to this financial institution coming to set up in Malaysia soon, if that happens it will make GMSB look like peanut. They have to plan ahead.
Sean says:
August 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm (UTC 8)
R u saying a giant goldco is coming to town and GMSB is moving out of the trade to avoid the competion? Then what happen to the smaller goldco?
Dari Sekinchan says:
August 2, 2011 at 11:28 pm (UTC 8)
i tell you this is a major joke of the year. now they cant even get things right in GMSB, all the hibah delayed,comms delayed bla bla bla and now they want to become a bank? Teh Hong Piao will laugh until rolling on the ground if he hears this.
Wylan Goh says:
August 4, 2011 at 2:16 am (UTC 8)
what if one day the PM impose the GST 7% ? It was on the star paper yesterday saying there could be a posibility GST 7%. If a investor buys the gold to make 1.5% x 6 months is 9%, and the investor have to cover 7% which he makes nett 2% after 6 months and one year is 4% which is only 1% more than most FDs. By then is it worth it?
Sudra says:
August 4, 2011 at 2:36 pm (UTC 8)
I think its 3-4% if he impose but will eat into the hibah a great deal
KC says:
August 8, 2011 at 11:35 pm (UTC 8)
Is Gold Beam part of Genneva Gold? My consultant (very regular hibah so far) texts me news updates abt Goldbeam. It’s been almost 3 months, I have not received my S&P certificate from him, but I am receiving my hibah (2X so far, RM336.60 each time)
Wylan Goh says:
August 9, 2011 at 1:05 am (UTC 8)
Your RM336 should be 2% of RM16,800 I guess? If you could have bought outright at RM12,600 (25% lower if outright) , by now is spot sell back price is RM 16,000+ if you sell back now. That’s RM3400 gain for just few months, but you just got RM336.60 x 2? OMG! Go kill your con-sultan. LOL
carrie says:
August 9, 2011 at 7:14 pm (UTC 8)
KC: Gold Beam is a non profitable organisation and is registered under the Register of Societies. Genneva Malaysia is registered under Suruhanjaya Syarikat Malaysia. Both are different legal entities.
You can check with your consultant about the delayed S&P – it could be just an oversight; it happens.
Wylan: It you had known the gold would appreciate the way it did today, I think you bet your entire fortune on it, wouldn’t you? I think the fair evaluation of the situation is – some people are looking at constant return every month instead of facing the uncertainty for the capital appreciation alone.
Btw, gold is expected to soar above the 1800 point this year, if your conviction is as strong as you led everyone to believe, you should put your entire fortune and buy gold!! That’s the right thing to do, right? But would you?
Dari Sekinchan says:
August 10, 2011 at 9:03 am (UTC 8)
Non profit? Are you sure? I dont think thats the case for the cow with a K
Forceum says:
August 9, 2011 at 12:43 am (UTC 8)
Have any of you monitor the gold climbing rate? It’s phenomenal. That brings the question. Why would it be viable to buy gold at 25% mark up and get only 1.5% a month when the appreciation is more than 2.5% a month now. Just buy out right and the appreciation is better than Genneva’s program.
@KC, you have not received your S&P? Actually the S&P is a trap for the customers.
suntoch singh says:
August 9, 2011 at 11:46 am (UTC 8)
Now it looks like genneva’s program is outdated, outright gold investment is the answer. Lookout for silver too, now its still tame but not for long. Mark my words.
KC says:
August 10, 2011 at 8:58 am (UTC 8)
Wylan, you have a point there ….I could have made more investing in gold outright – but Carrie is also right – most people opt for constant returns rather than wait for the capital to appreciate. I have learnt a lot from this forum -more than I learnt from my consultant. BTW, I got my S & P yesterday! I am not a big-time investor, just a faint-hearted rabbit testing the waters. Better get out before the Tsunami …
kardashan says:
August 18, 2011 at 12:40 pm (UTC 8)
I remember in june’s forum PL specifically mentioned that in the next 2-3 weeks the MOF will raid all those unscheduled companies. MANA ADA? Now is almost end of august.
Lee Mei May says:
August 18, 2011 at 1:29 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Kardashan,
On what basis is MOF going to raid the goldcos? Tuan Haji said “Dia orang ingat aku PM kah?’ With all the scare mongering and permanent “promotions”, this goldco seems to be just surviving as the price of gold is on a steep rise. That is the reason they are putting the tenure as 3 months because otherwise it will be profitable to sacrifice the 25% mark up and sell the gold outside for a profit. Please beware as desparados can do anything to salvage themselves. Have you seen the latest judgement on the Benny Madoff case.
suntoch singh says:
August 18, 2011 at 8:55 pm (UTC 8)
Dear ms.Lee,
can u share with us on the latest about Madoff? And yes they are desparate as many of consultants now selling for Precious Metal Sdn Bhd
Lee Mei May says:
August 18, 2011 at 11:50 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Suntoch,
The gist of the judgement are :
1. Investers who had profittrd from the scheme (collected more than they had put in) will need to return their “profit”;
2. Investors who had outstanding “paper profit” is not eligible for such “profit” since the scheme did not realise any of such “profit”;
3. Whatever sum recovered will be shared on the basis of “capital recovery” only.
Nathan Kadair says:
August 19, 2011 at 1:31 am (UTC 8)
Yes Suntoch you are right, in the end outright gold investment is the way instead of the so called customized platform at 25% higher for 1.5% over six months, now even shorter in 3 months, so the folks just keep toping up.
Dari Sekinchan says:
August 19, 2011 at 12:19 pm (UTC 8)
I also moved on to Prestige Metals s/b, previously known as Precious Metals S/B. I m not going to stay in GMSB and let them bully me. If any of you get calls from them don’t think twice.
Mad Off says:
August 19, 2011 at 4:25 pm (UTC 8)
Now the gold price is so high, I didn’t have to sell back to GMSB, outside can give us the same rate as your buying price in GMSB. Those who migrated 2-3 months back, when due the spot price should be in par with your purchase price, then move on to another camp.
Cina Apek says:
August 20, 2011 at 11:50 pm (UTC 8)
Now the problem is the gold we got is just a 999 chiplak gold not PAMP, how to sell outside for the desired price? if PAMP with cert ok la.
Lynn says:
August 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Lee Mei May
This is the first time I’m following this forum and only because a neighbour has just shared that she bought into Geneva Gold 3 months ago and has received about 1.5% to 2.0% commission/interest for the past 3 months. follwoing this blog, I note that you are very knowledgeable about investments in gold and would like to seek your opinion whether you think the price of gold will rise further or decline and why; seeing that the price of gold seen on some other blogs is said to be around US1880 as at 20/08/2011.
I will definitely not invest in goldcos such as Geneva but am interested to explore buying via banks in the form of savings deposit accounts. What do you think? Thanks in advance for your recommendation and advice. Regards.
Lee Mei May says:
August 22, 2011 at 8:13 am (UTC 8)
Dear Lynn,
Thanks for following Uncle Martin’s website.
If you look at the price trend for gold over the last 30 years, you will see that there is a general increase even though prices may, over short periods of time, drop. Generally, the price of gold will be low during the northern summer months of July to October-November and pick up again before Christmas. However, for this year, we have seen the biggest increase over the past month due to the following :
1. The Quantity Easing 1 & 2 (QE1 & 2) where money (US$) is printed without any backing;
2. The US deficit and debt ceiling crisis;
3. The Standard and Poor (S&P) downgrading of US debt rating;
4. The resultant tumble in the US Dow Jones and other Indices.
All the above together with the European monetory crisis and the falling value of the Euro, had resulted in the lack of confidence in fiat currency (paper money). Due to the lower value of the fiat currencies, inflation have eaten into the buying power. People have observed that precious metals such as gold is the only hedge against inflation, since their supply is limited and they are traded internationally. For example, 3 kg of gold can buy you a house 30 years ago. Today, with 3 Kg of gold you still hold the value of gold which can get you a house.
In the immediate future, once the share market had bottom out and human greed will see investors liquidating their gold positions and go bargain hunting in the stock market. It may come soon, or like the US housing woes, it may take quite some time. In the meantime, there is no harm in going for gold, if the money you are going to use, is not for your immediate needs, and therefore you have the holding power as whether the gold price weaken in the immediate future or not, it will definitely strengthen in the long run.
Magnum Pi’s contribution is enlightening. If your friend had bought gold three months ago, the spot price was then around USD1520 per ounze while last week gold closed above USD1840 per ounze, which is a whooping 21% increase. Assuming your friend paid 5% premium (above spot) when buying and 5% discount when selling she still makes 11% compared to the maximum 6% she makes with the goldco. One top of that, the goldco does not provide the certificate of origin and the gold may only be 999 gold instead of the PAMP 999.9 purity gold and the premium charged is 25% on spot prices determined by their own in house GoldBeam. Should there be a run, and the goldco goes belly up within 3 months, the purchaser stands to lose more than 25% as the selling discount paid is more than 5% since the gold is not PAMP gold and there is not certificate of origin.
Well, investing in gold is an insurance against inflation and currency devaluation. If you follow the gold prices closely you can even profit take before any temporary down turn and buy back into your position when the prices are on the recovery stage.
Magnum PI says:
August 20, 2011 at 11:28 pm (UTC 8)
Hi all,
Here are some good facts, dont just take my words for it, check the Kitco website.
In feb 2011 gold was at 1390-1400 per ounce, today is at about 1850 per ounce.
That is 30% up in 6 months.
FGJAM priced one year and 3 months ago when TGL went down was at 141 per gram, now at whooping 212 per gram !
Its defenately better than any investment vehicle u can name it.
Unit trust, Shares, FDs , Land Banking , hedge funds cant even smell the dust !
So thus what the heck are the fools buy it at 25% marked up to get 9% over 6 months( if at 1.5% p.m.) considering the hike is 30%, then where is the 21% went to? the directors pockets?
Genneva’s investors are pure fools. sad to say.
Wong T T says:
August 22, 2011 at 11:51 pm (UTC 8)
Regret lah, now I m stuck for 6 months for only 2%. I just found out there are other company giving 2.5% at only RM212 per gram. Hallmark Suisse gold with certificate.
carrie says:
August 26, 2011 at 6:19 pm (UTC 8)
TT Wong, tell me more about this great deal; 2.5%, price RM212 per gram and comes with a Hallmark Suisse Cert. The advantage about dealing with Genneva is the Syariah platform unlike other gold co. which, if they were to offer similar investment platform, they would most likely contravene Sec21(1) of the BAFIA and the AMLA in Malaysia.
Wong T T says:
August 28, 2011 at 12:49 am (UTC 8)
Pls go do your research before you comment, I don’t think you know much about this trade.
Lee Mei May says:
August 28, 2011 at 11:27 am (UTC 8)
Dear Carrie,
May Aidil Fitri be a joyeous occasion to you and your family.
Please do your own research before mouthing all the spins oozing from the goldco in particular PL, Pat Lu et el.
The Shariah platform is only a method of doing business following the 6 tenets as recited at the GMSB Seminar on Shariah Compliance (Datuk Aziz?), BAFIA and AMLA (the latter 2 by the lawyer turn “super salesman” and “spin doctor”)
In the Gold trading business GMSB is no different from any other goldco as is already categorically confirmed by BNM which had mentioned specifically that gold trading activities are under the auspices of the Suruhanjaya Syarikat Malaysia SSM or in English the Companies Commission of Malaysia CCM.
BNM had “noted” the submission of GMSB (aka Dimensi Sentosa) to carry out “Leasing and Factoring” under the semi-regulated “Scheduled Business”/”Reporting Institution), but GMSB’s gold trading in not within the activities submitted and “noted”.
Hence, the PL spin that MOF will be signing in an “Act” that gold trading can only be carried out by Scheduled Business/Reporting Institutions will hit all goldcos including GMSB.
BAFIA & AMLA are the 2 instruments used by BNM to raid goldcos not because of the business models but because BNM had suspicions that these goldcos had violated these 2 ordinances.
The directors of the GRANDFATHER of GMsb, Genneva Sdn Bhd., had been charged under both BAFIA & AMLA and “The Star” newspaper had reported that in the Genneva Sdn. Bhd. frozen account is only left RM20 million plus 5 kg of gold. GSB had raked in more than RM67 million of “Park-in” money from Investors. So where is the RM47 million? PDRM was “tailgating” and near to resolving this problem as mentioned by one Nadzmi 6 months ago but to date all had been silenced.
This goldco had kept changing like a chameleon in order that interested parties cannot check with SSM on their annual accounts submission. Who knows what is inside the account. The fact that they had blamed the bank for the delay in the Hibah payments and the bank had denied this responsibility speaks volumes regarding their financial position. Take care and happy gold investing.
zemi says:
August 24, 2011 at 1:28 am (UTC 8)
Waaahh, so many pros and cons and I’m totally blurred….
.luckily my wife disagreed…so lucky the money is not with me…
maybe blessings in disguise….maybe I should get more acquainted with all the good people here regardless of their opinions…it appears everyone is quite open and sincere ….
Uncle Gold says:
August 28, 2011 at 12:08 am (UTC 8)
Dear everyone especially the ones who are new to this,
In this investment platform, please do your homework first before you fall prey into the wrong party, there are many more better companies than Genneva. I can only say one thing, when a company is doing poorly there are a few things they would do,
1. Will try to sabotage the competitors by spreading negative romours on their competitors which they have done by saying MOF will raid everyone except them, intact MOF might raid the other goldcos but only for those who did not register with SSM as the gold trade is not in Bank Negara’s purview.
2. By making promotions, this will give it away very obvious that they are low on sales. The latest promotion by Genneva is 2.5% which is really an eyebrow raiser because they told everyone previously that at this rate of paying hibah is over paying, so now why are they doing it?
They are many legitimate companies out there that won’t short change you, just do your homework first.
BBQ says:
September 15, 2011 at 12:16 am (UTC 8)
A Chinese owned local bank would put a drastic plan to put out the “gold industry dominator”. For those who knows what I am talking about,hope you are all prepared. Good luck.
Magnum PI says:
September 17, 2011 at 2:27 am (UTC 8)
Teh ‘Tarik’ Hong Piaw has never let go the ‘Dominator’ goldco since GSB days. Even til now on GMSB still hounding the company.
Concern says:
September 16, 2011 at 12:44 am (UTC 8)
I am glad I found this discussion.
I was introduced to CSG Fine Metal (CeasarGold) recently. I have my doubts, and start looking for more information on the net and found this page but nothing on CeasarGold.
After reading for several hours, I feel the business modal of these two companies look similar, which I think is not sustainable or at least not when gold price turn bearish for long term.
Can someone help explain if CeasarGold in same as Geneva business modal. And I notice beside these two differences, everything else is same:-
1) CeasarGold sell at least 2% discount from FGJAM price, not marked up 25% as Geneva.
2) The gold bar comes with certificate from PAMP, not ownership certificate like Geneva.
Does these two differences make CeasarGold a sustainable business modal?
Many thanks in advance
Uncle Gold says:
September 17, 2011 at 1:26 am (UTC 8)
Dear Concern,
I have been long time experianced investing in gold trading since the early days of it, also been through many companies and many has come and gone, some still around. your enquiries is the difference between the 2 companies.
If you visit Caesar Gold’s website you will find that their price is at RM213 per gram, for FGJAM price today is still at RM216, which means they are selling at cheaper than FGJAM,
For them being the out right retailer and not offering the monthly platform, they will throw in an extra 3.5% discount which amount to RM205.55 per gram, after 3 months it can be sold back at RM213 plus an additional 3.25% cash voucher for sell back or second (thats what Genneva calls it) aka renew which makes it 6.75% in out right return compared to Genneva’s 2% x 3 months.
Genneva sells at RM225 as at yesterday’s price, which is RM12 higher than Caesar Gold (RM9 higher than FGJAM price) with return of 2% per month x 3. (1.5% per month at normal rate)
Caesar Gold and all other Goldcos presents you with the gold and certificate by PAMP itself but Genneva only the gold.
The other alternative is Prestige Metals S/B which offers 3% per month and sells at RM3 lower than Genneva, they presents PAMP Suisse with certificate.
If you ask me, i would prefer the lower entry price because the risk is lower but if i bought it at higher price i will have to wait longer if i were to sell it outside. On the other side of topic are the black history Genneva has inheirit and has an ENEMY which happens to be a top 3 local bank while Caesar Gold still clean.
i trust my advice are based on fair facts. Afterall people who enquired on this forum
are seeking the true facts.
Magnum PI says:
September 17, 2011 at 2:15 am (UTC 8)
Mr. Concern,
Its good that you find out from others on the gold trade before deciding,
Firstly, understand how the goldcos makes money for their investors, some goldcos out there are simply set up to do the laundry business, i guess you know who i am refering to. Usually the proper platform to invest in gold is the buy low and sell high method and the monthly rebate method seems a little unlegitimate. Buy low and sell high has been instrumental way to invest gold for decades and its proven. So look for the “outright” based goldcos to invest.
Based on the past history the monthly rebate goldcos were the ones that either closed down or raided ie. Bestino Sdn Bhd, Genneva Sdn Bhd, Tig Net Gold and TGL to name a few and those goldcos which are still alive and kicking are the “outright” based. ie. Public Gold,CSG,De Gem Bullion, Hong Chong jewels to name a few.
So invest wisely, gold is the way but pick the right company.
kardashan says:
September 17, 2011 at 3:17 pm (UTC 8)
There are so many currently operating goldcos in the market but only Genneva is the one being discussed in forum like this, reason is there have been a whole lot of dissatisfactory by clients and agents of Genneva. Some were being short changed,delayed and even being ransomed by the company (commisions). We dont see other goldcos being discussed here because they have good ethics to their clients and agents.
Wylan Goh says:
September 17, 2011 at 10:44 pm (UTC 8)
dear Concern,
If the platform the company deals with is on outright buy low sell high then yes i think it is sustainable, many of the outright gold companies are long time and stable, only the monthly rebates or hibah are the questionable ones, unless they get their gold supply really cheap, which i think there is a goldco out there supported by the PAMP principle company.
Concern says:
September 18, 2011 at 11:14 pm (UTC 8)
Hi,
Thank you for all the sharing
Hope you don’t mind ease me from another concern….
One feature of this business modal is that, the company is buying back from us (investors) the same price they sold to us a month or 3 months ago, regardless of whether the current price higher or lower.
Assuming gold price trend down at one point and continue to do so for 1 year or more. And as the gold price trend down, every time the company buy back from us 3 months later, they will be paying higher price, in another word, they are losing money on every trade in gold bearish market. How long can they sustain lost making???
I asked one of the speaker at CeasarGold presentation this ” it seems like the sustainability of this business modal is based on the strong believe that gold price will continue to go up and at anytime will only fluctuate a little on the way up”, and he answer “Yes”
Shouldn’t that fact cause a bit of fear….
We all know the major contributing factor for current gold price rush is the US and European economic uncertainty. Gold become a parking heaven when the economy is in shit. Now, isn’t to believe that the Gold price will continue up trend forever is to believe that the economic will be in shit forever?
If that believe does not make sense and illogical, than it is right to assume that at one point, gold price must experience a major down trend, it is just a matter of time.
So the question is back to, can this business model be sustainable in the gold down trend?
BBQ says:
September 19, 2011 at 3:25 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Mr. CONCERN,
You are really concerned about this dont you? I will let you in on a bit of history and do your research from here, X is the principle company of Pamp gold, so i m going to tell you about the X factor. Heres the history:
1. BESTINO sdn bhd was heavily soliciting supply by X until they started recruiting PB mutual agents, not long after that the supply stops,they then solicit supplies from 3rd parties ie.banks,outright retailers which cost more,in about a year after that they ran short fall of funds and desperately lists the company and release their share holdings prior aproval, then SC scrutinized them.
Genneva sdn bhd was enjoying a deal from X until they got raided but the privedge gone when they set up SGV,romour has it they were actively recruiting PB mutual agents during GSB’s time and that was the result of discontinuety from X
TGL was enjoying the deal from X until they sacked 3 of their backroom guys that was essential for getting the prefered rate from X, few months later they went into deficeit and soon try to recover by starting GSS, that got them into hot soup.
Usually the goldcos which did not get the preffered rate will find dificulty trying to cope with the buy back price. Sourcing supplies from banks and 3rd party suppliers are not profitable for the company, usually goldcos who decline supplies from X are usually dont last long. As a result they have to mark up high and comprimise rebates down at the same time to able to cover.
The rest of it pls do your research further.
Wylan Goh says:
September 19, 2011 at 10:58 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Concern,
What you mentioned on the concern are,
Q: This platform is good as long the gold price still going up? What if it crashed?
A: 2 factors here, one of it is at what rate did the goldcos get their stocks at?
Turn on the website and look into mysmartgold.com, look into customers’ selling price, it is RM3 lower than their customers’ buying price,
Example:
today FGJAM price at 216 per gram
Mysmartgold sells at 178,82 as at 10.45pm 19/9/2011
Mysmartgold buys at 175.77 as at the same time <— this is the price they got from supplier X
Goldcos like mysmartgold are 3rd party whole sellers who supplies to goldsmiths, banks also buys from X at 175.77 and sells them out at 178.00
The difference goldcos like Caesargold who buys from supplier X is at 175.77 and they sell at 216 ( direct profit of 40.23 per gram)
Compared to Genneva whom declined from supplies by X will buy at 178 from banks, that's why they have to mark up higher and lower their hibah so they can cover.
Now the reality, goldcos who supplied by X buys the gold stock 6 months in advance which is even lower , which then if the gold price drops, they have buffered.
So I hope this answers your doubts
Forceum says:
September 23, 2011 at 3:09 am (UTC 8)
Hi Wylan Goh,
Can I correct you? Bank do not sell $3 difference from supplier X, it’s $5 difference. So if mysmartgold sells at 178, banks sells at 180, gold retailing is not the banking core business and so they are not hadap to sell gold. If you ok then come buy,if not ok is fine.
Regards
Forceum @ HSBC
Newbie says:
September 19, 2011 at 11:01 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Mr Concern,
The speaker at CeasarGold only gave you half of the story.
For Genneva’s business model, if gold price increase 2.5% every month (interest + agent commission), they can break even (not including their overhead costs).
If gold price increase less than 2.5%, they will have to use the 25% premium borrowed from you to pay customers/agents. However, they structured the borrowing as a hibah, so they can default you without (or with less) hassle.
If gold price remains constant, the 25% premium borrowed from you will be depleted in 10 months. So how can the company sustain if gold price doesn’t increase??
I am sure you can guess…That’s right, the company needs new customers to lend them another 25% premium to pay off the old customers. Sounds like a ponzi?
If you believe gold price will increase 2.5% every month, why don’t you buy gold outside? If you believe gold price will increase less than 2.5% every month, why would you feel safe to buy into genneva?
Genneva is not for those pple looking for a stable fixed income, it is for pple who knows it is a ponzi scheme and play the investment like a ponzi scheme.
The agents have major conflict of interests with you. When genneva collapses, they don’t lose anything but integrity and reputation. However, many of them do not have these to begin with. Or some of them are simply too ignorant to understand the full picture. Don’t believe what they say unless they tell you it is a ponzi scheme! Do your homework!
Dear Anti-Genneva folks,
I have written to MAS a month ago but has not received any reply. Feels like I have not made the case strong enough to trigger an investigation. I start to wonder if offering unregulated investment products is considered illegal in Singapore. So far the worst they will do seems to be putting them on an Investor Alert List. Any help to make a stronger case?
I have been trying to find more info on the key people in Genneva. I heard Chin Wai Leong used to be some unsuccessful insurance and MLM salesman in Malaysia. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to put together a full story that will spark the interest of the media. Pro-Genneva folks can considered this as hibah from anit-genneva folks to help promote your company =)
It would also be great if anyone could give an update on the court proceedings in the Anti-Money Laundering and Illegal Deposit Taking case in Malaysia. Thanks so much.
Dear Mr Martin Lee,
The most updated thread is appearing in the centre of the page. Would it be possible to put the most updated thread either at the top or the bottom? Many thanks.
Bob Lay (S,pore) says:
September 19, 2011 at 11:57 pm (UTC 8)
The news that I got is Genneva and Gold Insignia was discovered by MAS on practicing park-in schemes, Genneva was on 100% park-in and GI was on 50% park-in. MAS issued a warning against them and ordered them to replace their park-in customers with gold or face actions, they immediately complied. After complied to the order has saved them from being offenders but MAS is taking no chance and put them under alert list to alert the citizens of a possible TGL.
Wylan Goh says:
September 19, 2011 at 11:15 pm (UTC 8)
Factor No.2:
As long US keeps printing money, no chance you will see gold price drops badly. Which I think it will keep going up until eternity.
Concern says:
September 20, 2011 at 9:09 pm (UTC 8)
Hi,
Thanks again for all the generous sharing….
I could make the following conclusion about CeasarGold operation base on all the feedback received here, and please correct if I am wrong:-
1) If the gold price keeps going up, the business modal is sustainable. Since the company stocks gold six months in advance, in price uptrend, they will make higher than standard profit for any gold they sell in future. More than enough to pay the 2% difference. Assuming gold price goes up at 2% a month or 24% a year, it would double within 3 years to about RM432/gm (Rules of 72). Conceivable?
2) If the gold price stagnate for long period, the business modal is NOT sustainable. The company will deplete their huge profit (FGJAM – X) they made selling at retail price, within a year, from paying 2% to investor every month.
3) If gold price tumble down, the business model is NOT sustainable. If gold price trend down fast continuously for 6 months, chances are it may come down to the price of the golds the company is holding. Meaning, to the new investors, the gold would be sold at the company’s cost or lower. And from that they still have to pay 2% to the investors. Imagine if the gold price continue down trend some more. No businessman would want to operated a loss making business, so is only natural they will fold the operation before reaching that point.
I think the business modal will become a real ponzi scheme when gold price tumble and the company is still running the scheme.
As someone suggested above “it is for pple who knows it is a ponzi scheme and play the investment like a ponzi scheme.”, I guess you right.
You can participate as long as gold price still in up trend, but when you notice it stagnate or tumble continuously for three months or more, quickly exit the scheme.
I would greatly appreciate any correction if my above conclusion is wrong, for everybody’s benefit.
Many thanks in advance.
Sudra says:
September 21, 2011 at 3:49 am (UTC 8)
based on your discription, it would seems if the gold price crash badly, GMSB will be more hard hit than Caesar Gold simply because the difference made between supplier X to FGJAM price is higher, more to buffer compared to buying at banks’ price and selling it marked up to Goldbeam price
CSG signature plan sells at almost the same price as posted by Goldbeam;
CSG buys from X and sell at Goldbeam price will have more allowance to buffer for eventuality
in compared to
GMSB buys from banks and sells at Goldbeam price
what do u think?
Lee Mei May, says:
September 21, 2011 at 8:34 am (UTC 8)
Dear Sudra,
Think of it this way :
If gold price is on the up trend, the customer can buy the gold at a smaill premium over spot (If the amount is big enough, can even get at spot or spot minus) and keep the gold as an insurance against inflation or use it to trade and profit (buy low , sell high).
If the gold price is on the down trend for a few months stretch, and the customer had bought at a high premium from the goldcos, there is the risk of the goldco going belly up. Remember, the bigger the volume done by the goldco with “loyal customers” the higher the chance of it failing as in a declining market :
1. There is no payment made on “balancing” and hence no profit from the “renewal” and the goldco has to subsidise the customer:
2. The 25% from new customers will not be enough to pay the “hibah” since customers will be more worried of coming in for fear that the value of the gold they buy at the inflated price will keep declining and if the goldco fails, they will be a big seller market and buyers are bargain hunting.
So, head the goldco win, tail the customer lose.
Concern says:
September 16, 2011 at 4:10 pm (UTC 8)
I am glad that I found this page.
GV agent says:
September 19, 2011 at 11:37 pm (UTC 8)
A few points I want to make across. And I will only point it out once.
GV sdn bhd not related to GV Malaysia legally. GV sdn bhd got into trouble due to m’sia law as money is gold but GV m’sia sdn bhd is Syriah compliance allowing GV to sell gold outright legally n fulfill it’s promises.. So can sustain the biz long term.
If anyone have doubts, or prefer other gold co pls go ahead… Remember this, a no of small gold co had collapsed bcoz of incapability fm management or in trouble with law n belly up.. Look at GV past events n it’s stability n it’s commitment to continues to be legally compliaces.. Judge fm there.
Syriah compliances is the only way for gold co to be legally tradable long term.. If don believe, time will tell you the truth.
Happy gold trading..
Newbie says:
September 20, 2011 at 1:41 pm (UTC 8)
Dear GV Agent,
In Malaysia, I have no doubt that GV is in compliance since they structured the interest as a hibah (gift). I even believe that they will still be in compliance if they default your hibah payment. Hence, compliance or not is not really a concern in Malaysia. Your concern should be:
1) How sustainable is this ponzi scheme?
2) How well do you know the management for you to judge that they are good? When you say GV past events, did you mean the incidents where they had to deal with delaying customer interest (cash flow shortages) or court case with Bank Negara? If you use the outcome of these events to claim the management is competent, you are lying to yourself. Good management should probably prevent these problems from happening in the first place.
Happy gold trading…
Dari Sekinchan says:
September 20, 2011 at 7:47 pm (UTC 8)
Dear GV Agent,
Are you Phillip Lim? You talk like him.
Lee Mei May says:
September 20, 2011 at 11:09 pm (UTC 8)
Dear GV agent
Please let me disabuse you for your ingenuity in trying to disassociate GMSB with GSB with the following comments :
1. If GMSB has not link with GSB, what the heck are the 3 Datos doing in formulating the policies running the GMSB operations? Are they just office boys?
2. Why was it that until last year (of course at that time it was not GMSB but SGV) during consultant meeting there were still talk of SGV arranging “Parked in” customers account to be converted to SGV accounts;
3. Why was SGV doing double billing for GSB account holders who decided to sell their gold at 20% discount to a “third party” who is traced back to at least one of the Datos?
4. With SGV, the buy back was done through a company linked to at least one of the Datos who owns the gold factories.
Talking of GSB and the “Parked In” investors, this is a gentle reminder to all of you to consult your lawyers regarding the effect of the Statue of Limitation on your “funds” in GSB. If you do not initiate claim within the stipulated period which in most countries is 3 years, then you can say bye bye to whatever had been “parked-in”. Remember, the raid on GSB was 21/07/2009 and now we are 2 years 2 months pass that date and some investors may have a payment due on the day of the raid which means their last payment was 1 month ago and now 2 years 3 months overdue.
5. Of course, you are absolutely right that “legally” there is no link between GMSB and GSB, none whatsoever. However, here we are talking reality as otherwise how can GMSB claim to have a worldwide network when that network is owned by GSB?
During the mention of the court case, the lawyer for the Datos argued that the 3 Datos need their passport to oversee their goldco business overseas.
Two main reasons regarding the official non-involvement of the 3 Datos in SGV/GMSB are :
1. From information given at the consultant weekly briefing, their personal accounts had been frozen with that of GSB;
2. The 3 Datos having been charged in court under AMLA and BAFIA, which are commercial crime charges. Of course we have to assume that they are innocent until proven guilty.
PDRM was tailgating but crash out due to reasons best known to the power that are.
Coming to the claim that Shariah compliance bestow on GMSB gives it the legality that other goldcos do not have. Has this been confirmed by BNM or SSM? If not, is it a true statement? Remember, the “last goldco standing” remarks repeated many times by the clever lawyer and PL that by the stroke of a pen by the Finance Minister can make it illegal for non Scheduled Business/Reporting Institutions to be involved with gold trading business. Is Gold trading as conducted by GMSB in accordance to their submission to BNM to carry out “Leasing and Factoring” and has BNM not stated very categorically that GMSB gold trading does not come under its purview but rather is under the purview of SSM. Would BNM say this if GMSB’s gold trading is carried out as a Scheduled Business?
Is GMSB shariah compliant?
Not owning the gold it sells is not in conformity with one of the tenets of the Shariah Compliant. The smart lawyer and GMSB treat this as a “technically” but the practice is GMSB Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). Since the Shariah Compliance is governed by BNM and its Shariah committee, maybe somebody is sleeping or ………………….
The fact that many goldcos failed is a combination of various factors but the main reason is the sustainability of the BUSINESS MODEL. Well Benny Madoff’s ponzi crumbered after more than 20 years because regulators “shut one/both eyes” Do we have to wait to be hurt. If gold price is a factor and it is on the uptrend, why do customers pay inflated price to buy the gold and worry when they will lose their 25-30% based on the actual value of the gold they are holding. Customers do not get the Certificate of Origin and the Gold may not be PAMP Gold with purity of 999.9
Even supplier X have stop supplying to this goldco. Wishing all gold customers the best for your future. Gold is insurance against inflation. Buy wisely.
sudra says:
September 21, 2011 at 3:14 am (UTC 8)
a few pointers here, u said:
GV to sell outright legally to fulfill its promise?, can i remind u that GV is not a outright platform. legally ? well i can accept that and so does a few goldcos out there, fulfill its promise? How do u answer a few of the clients were decline buy back when due which the client refuse to migrate from SGV to GMSB and force them to migrate or keep the gold at 25% loss, mind u those were due clients,not in the mid way, if in the mid way and were forced to migrate that i understand.
Look at GV past event? Thats a nice one. i can repeat that for u,
2009 GSB got raided and PDRM came with the entire force and trucks as if it were a terrorist stand off,
Then started SGV, after that was good for a while but were sudden snap migration and all clients and consultants caught off guard, ironically that happens after KC Liew fled. whats the reason?
Now recently they said they will become a bank, wow! but not in Malaysia, why?
Is it they are desperately trying to free themselves from BNM ?
Please mr GV agent, know your facts before u write anything here.
GV agent says:
September 21, 2011 at 10:23 am (UTC 8)
Another small gold company is facing problems already.. This company is selling much higher than GV
Sean says:
September 21, 2011 at 1:12 pm (UTC 8)
That doesn’t make Genneva any safer, like they said Genneva buys the gold at higher cost from banks. All goldcos running on the same method of back room principle.
Magnum PI says:
September 21, 2011 at 2:02 pm (UTC 8)
I guess what these people talking about the supplier X should be MKS, they won’t supply to any Tom Dick & Harry gold companies, especially those who has no credibility , any small or big gold companies whom they decline will result to outsource supplies to 3rd party which will constrain their revenue and earnings. As of now MKS only supply to a small handful of trusted goldcos and banks.
Lee Mei May says:
September 21, 2011 at 5:57 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Gv Agent,
You seem to relish the fact that you have one less competitor but in actual fact you are slapping your own face because the competitor who went down works on the same BUSINESS MODEL and all goldcos which work on this BUSINESS MODEL can follow that route. Please read what Sudra has to say on buyback – only when it suits the goldco. I think Sudra should take up with Pat Lu who had stated categorically that with GMSB the customer is CAPITAL PROTECTED. The smart lawyer had removed the clause on buyback, from the contract but it doesn’t even matter because with Genneva, even with a GUARANTEED BUYBACK (GBB) from GSB, they still discount your gold by 20%. in Q4 2009.
Anyway, the end of the year is coming and it is time for the companies to file their accounts with SSM. So by mid next year, you can pay a fee and see the nice figure of the profit made which PL had so proudly said make GMSB laughing all the way to the bank. It will be exciting days ahead for the gold market when the Europeans are looking for shelter and the USD is gaining ground. So which way will gold move?
Uncle Gold says:
September 23, 2011 at 2:35 am (UTC 8)
GMSB buys their stocks from banks at 180 for example, then they sell at 223-225, assuming they sold at 225, today the price drop like crazy, what if that happens again when the batch the co bought at 180 sold for 225, then the gold crashed below 180, maybe 178 for example, when the client sell back at due date they have to pay back at 225 and the gold returned its actual value of the day is 178, how are they going to cope? It’s unlike other goldcos who can buy at lower price from X so that the price drops is still within their buying region and even if the gold drop to 178, they probably bought the stocks from X at 177 ( RM3 lower than banks)
Lee Mei May says:
September 23, 2011 at 10:28 am (UTC 8)
Dear Uncle Gold,
The spinners at GMSB the like of PL and Pat Lu tried to project the image that
1. The goldco, due to its size, can buy the gold at wholesale price which can be either at spot or even below spot, when in actual fact their are buying either from banks or third parties;
2. That their platform is “capital protected” when they do not even have a buy back clause in their contract and there had been instances when they refuse to buy back from their customers.
3. The shariah platform allows them to “play around” with the hibah since this is a gift or profit sharing which is given to the customer, it is arbitrary and given at the discretion of the Seller. Therefore, when the kitty is empty and the price of gold is down, they can refuse both buyback and the giving of hibah..
Kardashan says:
September 24, 2011 at 1:36 am (UTC 8)
PL and KC has been repeatedly saying at the forums that the company buys gold from banks,so I don’t think they are lying. At least they are truthful about that but banks selling price is sort of on the high side.
Carrie says:
October 5, 2011 at 9:32 pm (UTC 8)
Uncle Gold,
Well, well if I pay RM5/gm more as compared to the price that I can get at Poh Kong and get hibah, why not? The risk goes up for the buyer if the price of gold is flat or uptrend is not bullish. However, due to world currency crisis, people around the world realise gold is the way to protect their paper money from losing it’s value. GMSB is riding the wave and as long as the current uptrend continues, everyone is ok. If GMSB should fold, it will not be impossible to buyers to recover their position given the trend. I hope you have invested in gold in one way or another…
Sudra says:
September 21, 2011 at 9:46 pm (UTC 8)
So far i only know the goldco who sells gold at the record highest in the country is Genneva, if there is another goldco who can break the record from Genneva and still prevails in the business i want to shake his hand.
Niz says:
September 26, 2011 at 2:39 pm (UTC 8)
i have a question, any of the guru here able to answer?
It was 6 months ago i remembered the gold price from banks are at 160+ per gram,
i assume GMSB purchase the gold from banks at that price, now it is due 6 month and the clients sells back or renew at 185, which means the company need to refund at 185, as of today the gold has dropped to actual spot value at 160+, so GMSB takes back the gold and pays the clients their 185 and for the gold is only worth 160+ now, so now what ? It is a direct loss of about 20 per gram for GMSB.
Nathan Kadair says:
September 26, 2011 at 3:01 pm (UTC 8)
as of now @ 3pm 26/9/11 gold spot price on kitco is 150+ , it is a direct RM30 loss when they buy back or renew the client today.
Not to mentioned that they have paid out hibah for 6 times and the agents’ commissions.
So you see when a goldco buys from 3rd party, this is their demage when this event happens, those who buys from X is buffered a little but not entirely due to lower purchase price.
So how is GMSB going to absorb the thousands of clients on the direct loss?
Lee Mei May says:
September 27, 2011 at 4:35 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Niz and Nathan Kadair,
Please note that when GMSB buys back the gold at RM185 and assuming their sell it out at the GoldBEAM 26/09/2011 price of RM211, they still makeRM26 (14%). However, since their gold delivery takes 3 days and if they had sold the gold earlier (last week), they would have made a fortune. Gold beam is there to help GMSB survive even though you are a member, it is not for your interest. Wait for the gold price to drop and then buy from wholesalers. This way when the price of gold goes up, the gain is yours. Why take crumbs and get screwed when you can have a feast. Be very careful though, as the gold trade nowadays is manipulated by the speculators. Even George Soros hardly made a dent when he pull a billion out from the ETF. Happy gold buying
Lee Mei May says:
September 29, 2011 at 12:21 am (UTC 8)
One of the Tenets of the shariah platform is that the Shariah Compliance requires that the Seller only sell something which he ALREADY OWNS or so the consultants had been told at the seminars organised by a Shariah Compliant Goldco.
Now this particular goldco is going to set up a trust fund, to be “safeguarded” by the Shariah Committee (not sure whether it is the goldco’s own internal Shariah committee or that of BNM) so that the payments made by the purchaser will go into this trust fund until the goldco deliver the gold to the Purchaser. You break the rule and then you ask the guardians to be the custodian for the instrument used to break the rule. How clever!!!!!
The reason used is that the goldco cannot get the supply of gold fast enough. Ha, ha, ha!!!!!!
Didn’t Pat Lu said very clearly that one of the way the goldco make the money to pay your “hibah” is to hedge by buying low and selling high?
How much gold does the goldco want to buy at bank selling price (banks are their main source of supply and now banks are putting the squeeze on them after one of the top factory supplier decline to service them)? Just let me know, and I will arrange for the supply based on bank selling price and cash in – gold out.
Magnum PI says:
October 2, 2011 at 1:27 am (UTC 8)
Banks are now seems facing shortage of supply recently due to supplier X shutting half the supplies, that’s why only recently we see banks selling it slightly higher than whole sellers ie. Mysmartgold. Have anyone noticed that mysmartgold particularly buying SGV and Genneva gold at favorable rate to sellers and then sells it to Supplier X at a good price, sounds like a plot to play out GMSB.
Carrie says:
October 7, 2011 at 2:13 pm (UTC 8)
I’m not surprised. If GMSB is surprised, then they are not fit to be in the game. They have proven they are not a novice in the gold game themselves; having taken many fierce blows from the authorities, rival companies, unjustified claims etc etc and still triumphing to date! They may be Cina apek in their approach, but they deliver; we win some, lose some la…
Carrie says:
October 5, 2011 at 9:12 pm (UTC 8)
Lee Mei May,
I get this impression that you are paid to do what you do. I find it hard to believe when all that are said are TOTALLY negative and you are so persistent and adamant in “bringing this company down. What is your profit? Besides, while there are some unhappy people, there are many who are happy and benefiting from the program. This is the reality.
Lee Mei May says:
October 5, 2011 at 10:05 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Carrie,
Please be informed that this world still have population of decent people who follow their conscience instead of the the money trail which leads to the corruption of the soul.
Please be informed that you may consider what was expressed as negative, but can you please let the world know whether it is the truth and if it is not the truth, what then is the truth and I will assure you that I will answer your “truths” one by one, just like the “truths” of “capital protected”, “guaranteed buyback”, “hedging by buying low and selling high to make profit for the company” and “gold refining for profit” by PAT LU.
More than a thousand consultants had attended the seminar on Syariah Compliance, AMLA and BAFIA and I am sure ALL of them heard the speaker paid by GMSB telling all and sundry that under the Syariah platform, the Seller cannot sell what it does not own.
Selling what it does not own is what GMSB is doing now with the “Trust Fund” controlled by the Syariah Committee under its payroll.
If all that the goldco does is negative, am I going to be the magician to changed black into white?
As I said, gold is the way forward but buying gold high and holding it without profiting from its appreciation does not protect the future of the buyer. I await with interest for you to point out which of the “negative” expression(s) is not true. Please! If pointing out the “negative” acts of a goldco is “negative”, then let it be, but If the “negative” view is not true then I stand to be corrected.
Observing says:
October 13, 2011 at 1:09 pm (UTC 8)
very nice reply
But you question remains,
Are you being paid to write all these things about these goldcos?
and have you ever worked for them before?
pls clear the air over this
thanks
Lee Mei May says:
October 14, 2011 at 6:51 am (UTC 8)
Dear Observing,
As I had said many times before,
1. I have a vested interest in the gold business as I invest in Gold and also buy and sell gold in the gold trading market which gives me the insurance against inflation and when I buy low and sell high, I do make profit and it is a good profit. However, I DO NOT PARTICIPATE in any of the goldcos, because I see their business model as being not sustainable. Mine is purely a buy, keep, sell positions. No thinly veiled “hibah”, no millionaire consultants, and no fixed tenure.
2. No, I do not get paid by any goldcos and my conscience is my guide when I write.
3. No, I have never worked for any of the goldcos nor am I a customer of any of them.
4. Watch out for the MOTHER OF ALL SCAMS COMING TO A CLIMAX VERY SOON WHERE THE SCRIPT IS ALREADY IN PLACE AND PLAY STARTED. MANY WILL BE HURT AND SOME WILL FACE 100% LOSS. BEWARE.
Observing says:
October 14, 2011 at 10:48 am (UTC 8)
LMM
thanks for your reply.
sorry but i’m a bit picky but my question was
are you being paid to write all these things about these goldcos? payment can be from anyone or any body, not limited to from goldcos.
cheers
Lee Mei May says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:15 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Observing,
No, nobody be it the goldcos or the banks pays me. I write because I know that the Business Model the goldcos are working on are not sustainable and I hate to see the sorrow it will create when the collapse occur. So the simple answer is NO BODY PAYS ME as I have very good income from my gold trading activities of BUYING LOW AND SELLING HIGH not buying high and selling low and incurring the huge risk.
With the “Trust Fund” now the risk is 100% until the physical gold delivery.
Observing says:
October 14, 2011 at 2:52 pm (UTC 8)
Dear LMM
I must salute you for your dedication. it is exemplary.
i have seen your numerous posts and you seem to have such detailed and in depth knowledge of the ongoings and operations of these goldcos.
But yet you say “i have never worked for any of the goldcos nor am I a customer of any of them”
Can you please tell us then, where do you get all this information? have you heard them for your self or are they stories related to you by those involved with the goldcos?
I ask because you see so sure of your facts, that the facts are absolutely true.
But if you are not a customer or a worker of these goldcos, are not your facts then hearsay?
You also seem to know exactly what the authorities are going to do about these goldcos. Are you then working for the authorities?
If you are, then please say so. then your posts will carry much more weight.
I mention this because reading thru your posts, I cannot help but detect a certain amount of malice and vehemence on your part. You name many individuals like you know them personally.
To an Independence observer like me, it would seem that you or someone you love has been hurt by the shenanigans of these goldcos.
At times, they sound like the rantings of a religious fanatic warning us of the end of the world.
I think that what you should do is
a) make clear who exactly you are,
b) why you spending hours and hours of your precious time writing all these informative posts for free
c) and reveal to us your gold trading method, with which which you say “I do make profit and it is a good profit. ”
otherwise anyone would find it is difficult to take you seriously
cheers
Agent says:
October 14, 2011 at 4:03 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Observing,
I think it was so obvious and there were so many people already state the facts clearly. It will be best you do more homework. But if greed is in work, then individual decides their personal risk.
There were already many goldco supporters like you fighting the case for probably personal gain. But most have proven themselves wrong. Time will show you.
Good luck
Observing says:
October 17, 2011 at 6:07 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Agent,
It’s so sweet of you to come out in defense of LMM while she has kept silent.
I have nothing against LMM, i only wanted her to come clean and tell us about her gold trading method.
Cheers
Agent says:
October 17, 2011 at 11:37 pm (UTC 8)
Defence?? When we all were cautioning on this scam, you nor LMM were no where in sight at all! LMM perseveres, but many of us have given up telling greedy people. Obviously those blood suckers con-sultant tried to defence their wicked activity and making people like LMM looks bad.
It has been over a year or two that many had advised on this thread and TGL thread. There are already more than enough examples to write a book. Very obvious, only the blood sucking con man are blind to the many obvious cases and facts and continue to support the scam. Are you one of those?
Top GAM says:
October 29, 2011 at 5:51 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Observing….don’t think LMM will reply your last questions truthfully…otherwise credibility will be wiped out
Lee Mei May says:
October 30, 2011 at 10:51 am (UTC 8)
Dear Top GAM,
Sorry to say, we are now past the stage of living in denial and customers are facing the prospect of losing all either due to business model failure or violation of regulations leading to suspension and all you can harp on is my personal investing prioritites which I have already reiterated time and again, and I repeated, gold investing is for the future. Buy low sell high. The goldco has a lot to hide and that is the reason they are telling their “Con-Sultans” not to bring out any dirty linen or risk being “terminated”. How to cover the fire with paper, oh!
Cinimon says:
October 2, 2011 at 1:45 am (UTC 8)
Looks like it that the concern over this Genneva thingy is mainly about “…TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE…” or “How can they sustain with this platform-discounts given are just too obscene…”
Maybe Genneva should consider just rewarding their clients with just 4% – 7% (0.33 – 0.58% a month) instead of a potential 12% / 20% / 24% a year. I have always thought that most business models are done either based on profits or leveraging, generating profits with the clients monies.
Lowering the discounts will then have the effect of many Gurus or shall i say Goondus with new fresh comments on angles as to why… “…It’s not worth the buy…, the risk is too high, the returns are too low,,,” and many more…
Someone did mentioned this before and i really can’t help but to agree.
“If I put a pot of Gold right in your face and ask you to take it, a million doubts would probably run thru your mind – is the gold real? is it legal? it’s too good to be true, something MUST be wrong… BETTER DONT”T TAKE IT!” because good things never happens to me and all things good must be wrong somewhere somehow…”
All are based on speculations so far and where are the hard facts and proofs, maybe even links to the so called investigations and dubious business model and platform. The way certain people so claim that they are so sure from the way they speculate about the business model either worked in or were partners, if that is not my speculation, then how do they know for sure that it is a dubious business?
I wonder who were present at the launch of Samudra GV Syariah KL…
What are the risk in the financial stock market? I am sure there were many a time where fund managers do sometimes make a wrong judgment causing substantial lost and guru investors losing their fortunes overnight.
So far in Singapore, clients of Genneva need not have to wait 2 days or more before collecting the physical gold after payment is cleared. Better check if the delay is due to the consultants negligence.
Has anyone seen the contract so far and does it state that the sell back isn’t guaranteed on the purchased amount that is also the future buy back value?
My stocks could crash overnight and I’d be left with nothing,
I could liquidate my property investments fastest in 2 and a half months provided the laws in the country allows me to, of which i may fall in the liability period of paying a sellers stamp duty depending on time of purchase that may potentially cause me to lose money.
Nothing is guaranteed.
In anything, buy or invest only if you are financially capable and sure that in the event of a potential disaster, you are able to cushion that margin lost and with that, I would say that the pot of gold is as real as it looks.
Happy buying anything!
Prudent investor says:
October 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm (UTC 8)
I totally agree with cinnamon, I have being following this blog n I find there are some gurus, gundos n perhaps employed bloggers whoever they are, acting like they knew everything.. I’m juz wondering why would people wants to stop any company or ppl fm making money..
A word for investors outside Be aware of the risk n take it if u dare for the world will not take pity on anyone if u don’t make it.. Juz be careful of the opinions of the so call knows everything.. Weights the risk n decide ourselves..
Cinimon says:
October 3, 2011 at 12:31 am (UTC 8)
I totally disagree with you on this Lee Mei May
My reply to your thread in bracket,
Lee Mei May – 1. That the customer has to return to GMSB to trade the gold as without the certificate, the price offered outside is much lower and the outside buyer will have to conduct tests to verify its authenticity;
(I don’t know about you but have you tried selling the gold back to the bank or whichever source it came from? like for example in Singapore that would be UOB. I rightfully own the gold till the day i decide to exercise my sell back option at the guarenteed sell back value.)
Lee Mei May – 2. Part 2 of the plan is that, in the event the customer does not want to roll over the contract on expiry and insist on withdrawing, GMSB will not “buy back” the gold at the purchase price and the customers has either to sell the gold back to the goldco at 20% discount or face the outside buyer without the certificate.
(Have you personally vetted the invoice contract that says clients can sell back the gold to GV only with the conditions of a 20% discout or were you in any case, ever experienced such a condition? I do believe that the conditions of suffering any potential discounted sell back only happens if you were to exercise the sell back after the 7 days period)
Lee Mei May – The survival of the goldco and its business model depends on the customer base snowballing and the goldco profitting from the gold price appreciation.
(In any business at all, which company would surive or expand if they only rely on existing client base? I totally agree with you you that gold companies most profits from the appreciation of the yellow metal. Genneva has been put to the test several times even during the ups and downs of gold pricing during the last 3 years. Sometimes i really do wonder how the industry players like jewerllery shops survive with those high overheads like, rentals, staff salary, inventories and adverts. How do they pay off these high cost? Hmmm, wonder if their business models are dubious in someways. I wonder if Genneva’s sales are better than theirs cos i often pass by their retails and see the sales person sometimes wonder if they are fortunate or unfortunate with the time they have on hand.)
Dear Ms Lee Mei May, no doubt you seem pretty knowledgeable with the market and mathematics fundamentals but many of your thread leaves many question marks with example to the many allegations without substance, like i said in my previous thread, you WERE either a management staff of GV that you seem 100% sure of what you say or you had previously tried formulating, duplicating the business model but failed? Like I mentioned, those were your sepculations and allegations on how the business model runs, what and where are your substance to your allegations?
As for me, I have the capabilities to absorb and cushion the 20% to 27% premium that GV sells their gold at and so if anything goes wrong, I’ll just hold the yellow pieces till we all know and you too believe, gold in time never depreciates due to the economic fundamentals, it may not be such a bad thing after all. By the way, would any retails sell their gold at cost? The banks i am sure marks up their prices too.
Happy buying anything! Buy within your means…
Dari Sekinchan says:
October 3, 2011 at 9:05 am (UTC 8)
Hello Cinimon & Prudent Investor,
I guess you fellas are Singaporeans, well I guess whatever you comment on the Singaporean counterpart should be correct as we in Malaysia practically knows nothing on the Singaporean counterpart. However we on the Malaysian side are very well versed in our local counterpart. Lee Mei May is so far commenting on our local side and I think she is very aware and knowledgeable on what she writes on the Malaysian counterpart. I think probably Genneva Singapore & Malaysia are being run by two different management and therefor I think Genneva Singapore is better managed than Malaysia. As you can see, GMSB has been complained, commented on all sorts of dissatisfactions by their consultants here on this blog and you see almost none from Singapore. So I guess you guys are luckier.
Cinimon says:
October 3, 2011 at 3:50 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Dari, thanks for comment, I guess it is upsetting if it is really the system of the management that is at fault, it is also to my suspisions that somehow consultants may be misrepresenting alot of other info on the conditions just to keep the personal sales figure running for them. I may not be sure but it’s definately worth looking up.
In any kind of industry, there are un-ethical sales peeople and of course clients around so sometimes choosing the person you work with is very important.
I believe that choosing a right consultant as well as consultants choosing their clients should be their 1st priority.
There are very unscrupulous agents around but that does not make the agency dubious.
Hope things get better over in M’sia.
Bino says:
October 4, 2011 at 5:59 pm (UTC 8)
So far I don’t really see any professional agents in Genneva Malaysia, all the agents whom the company recruited are usually the uncle aunties, the Chinese apek, the kedai mamak Indians , the younger ones will be the pirated DVD peddlers type of youngsters. The real professional people like the seasoned investment advisors or the financial planners standard of agents are in the other rival companies. With all these so called no so professional people are hungry for money and they simply talk and they only focus on the commissions. Misrepresentations are not only on the agents, like Kardashan mentioned, the company itself has been preaching wrong culture and teaching false selling points like the license and approvals from BNM.
Lee Mei May says:
October 4, 2011 at 9:43 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Bino,
Among the top echelon of the marketing effort are the land bankers, failed MLM distributors, insurance agents and housewives, but the driving force is not the background of the “marketeers”. It is the addiction to the golden rice bowl. Having said that, what do you think of a company which :
1. Have as the grandfather, one which had collected more than RM67 million from the “Park – in” customers greedy for the high 4.5% per month return. The Directors of this “grandfather” had been charged under AMLA and BAFIA and I am also almost sure that the case will be dragged until after the Statue of Limition takes effect and the Honorable Datos will be acquited of all charges and become born again Directors of the current chameleon goldco or any successor. They have “paid” the price for whatever alleged transgression with not being “director” for at least 3 years.
2. The current goldco had projected its image of disowning the grandfather, but still wants to claimed that it has an international network which is owned by the grandfather. This network include the Singapore operation.
3. This goldco claims that it is Shariah compliant, yet it sells gold which it does not own which is against 1 of the 6 tenets as preached at the goldco organised seminar.
4. This goldco claims that it is Operating as a semi-regulated Schedule Business/Reporting Institution and yet BNM had noted its submission as a Schedule Business to carry out “Leasing and factoring” and had stated categorically that the goldco’s gold trading business is not uner the purview of BNM, rather it is under the purview of the Company Commission of Malaysia (SSM).
5. If you read the contract, you will find that after the customer had paid in full, the goldco can deliver the gold “physically” or “constructively”. Is the constructive delivery legal or does it not amount to a violation of BAFIA?
I am sure the “insiders” (Consultants and S. cons) can add many more jewels/gems which this goldco threw out to them. Suffice to say that the goldco only source of income is from selling gold at an inflatted price. Maybe Pat Lu can provide multiple reasons for disagreeing so that he can keep collecting the golden eggs from his “goldgoose”
As for me, gold is the way to ensure your future against inflation and on the way make some money by buying low and selling high. Happy gold holding.
Orang KL says:
October 5, 2011 at 1:47 am (UTC 8)
Tell me about it, my agent (and also friend) is a bankrupt , he told me can’t get in as an agent due to his C-Tos status but cleared after paying up his goldbeam money and pledged to the company of at least 1kg of sales in 1 month. So the C-Tos restriction is just for show, you can still bribe your way in.
Lee Mei May says:
October 3, 2011 at 7:39 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Cinimon,
Let me start with the off repeated statement I made. I am neither from GMSB, nor a consultant to GMSB or a customer of GMSB as I found that I can buy gold at near market spot which means that if the gold goes down, I just keep what I have and maybe buy more. If the price goes up, I will wait or average my costs, which means that, even if I suffer some temporary loss, it will be minor and over time I am on the positive (profit) side of the curve. Hope this clears any suspicion that I have a vested interest. In fact, when goldcos go belly up and customers are desperate to sell, I buy from them at a discount much less than what GMSB charges.
Now, let us get back to your comments :
1.Buy back guarantee
The grandfather of Genneva Malaysia Sdn. Bhd. which is Genneva Sdn. Bhd. (GSB) had the Buy Back Guarantee written in black and white in the CP form. What good did it do? The “third party” (I called it the “interested party” because it is non other than one of the numerous companies which belongs to the majority shareholder of GSB) and he said he cannot do the buyback because his account was frozen.
Genneva Singapore operates in a different way and even on the website there is mention of buyback. In Malaysia GMSB says that it run counter to BNM to state the buyback condition in the contract. Is there such a rule? BNM stated very clearly that goldcos operates under the Registrar of Companies for their gold trading platform and BNM will only intervene if any goldco breaches either AMLA or BAFIA.
A few reasons customers do not sell back to banks :
* Banks deal with 999.9 PAMP gold with certificates. GMSB gold is only 999
*GMSB had put in the microdot identification in the gold;
* which customer would buy high and sell low?
2. Buy back value
The buy back clause is totally excluded from the contract contrary to what our brilliant Senior Consultant of GMSB said of the deal as being “Principal Assured”
“Buy back” is at the discretion of the Seller just like the “hibah” Please refer to Kardashan for his experience in this area of the GMSB operation. I can assure you it is not outside the window allowed.
3. Business model
Just do some simple calculations (doesn’t even need ACCA qualifications and see for yourself).
Why is the goldco having one “promotion” after another?
Why are the consultants presses to sell more and recruit more consultants to sell more? Goldcos which failed operate on the same or similar business model.
GSB collected more than RM67 million from “Parked-In” customers and only have RM20 million plus 5 kg of gold in their frozen account as reported in the Malaysian “Star” daily and confirmed by the lawyer for the Trio when the case came up for mention and bail setting was discussed. So GSB is waiting for the Statue of Limitation so that they do not have to pay back the “Parked-in” money.
Here we are not talking of a normal business. It will surprise you to find out that other the selling of gold to the customers, GMSB has no other source of income. Of course the brilliant Pat Lu talked about income from hedging on gold by buying low and selling high. At any time you can walk into Genneva and they do not even own the gold they are selling to the customers. Pat Lu again mention that they do gold refining.The gold factories does not belong to GMSB but to Mr. Ng Poh Weng and even then it is only to break down the 1 kg bars to the smaller bars/coins at RM600 per kg. In fact GMSB is paying for this. So how can it be counted as an income earner? Pat Lu is brilliant, isn’t he?
4. Allegations without substance
Please mention the “allegation” and I will fill you out with the substance.
5. My connection with GMSB
Please see my introduction.
6. Intrinsic value of gold
Of course I believe in gold and of course I made money from gold and as I said, I do not have any regret of my active participation. Nevertheless, even though I can afford it, I would not pay such high premium for the gold. Maybe you should read the contract which includes among other things a clause to say that the gold can be delivered to the buyer physically or “constructively”. If you are not sure of the word “constructively”, please check with your lawyer or dictionary/encyclopedia.
Latest
After the consultant had been made to pay of attending the ShariahCompliance, AMLA and BAFIA seminar now GMSB is telling its consultants and customers that they will only buy the gold after full payment is made to a trust fund controlled by the Shariah committee and draw from the fund after the gold is delivered to the customers. Who is paying for the committee and how sure is it that the fund is properly controlled? Anyway, one of the 6 tenets of the Shariah Compliance as emphasized in the above mentioned seminar says, “Under the Shariah platform, Seller CANNOT SELL ANYTHING WHICH THEY DO NOT ALREADY OWN. So by using the Shariah committee to control the trust fund they are making the committee break their own basic tenets. Please tell me this is without substance as I am waiting to hear.
Of course there are people who compare the risks with the “zero sum” games such as Stock, mutual fund, forex trading, insurance, etc. Zero sum means : loser = winner + agents’ commission. I can’t help it if you are interested but as I said, I do not even touch it with a ten feet pole. Happy gold buying
Old GAM says:
November 7, 2011 at 8:23 pm (UTC 8)
I like this reply!
Kardashan says:
October 4, 2011 at 12:29 pm (UTC 8)
Hello Cinimon,
In regards to your comment, I m also a consultant in Malaysia. I now speak from my experience also for the benefit of others.
I started off naif as I was educated by my leaders and trainings that they are all so called compliant and LICENSED by Bank Negara. 3 months later the tables turned,after I have advocated to my clients on the LICENSED then company tells us DO NOT TELL ANYONE THEY ARE LICENSED nor approved by Bank Negara, it seems they have been summoned by BNM with a show cause letter for this kind of misrepresentation.
As if that wasn’t embarrassing enough for me as i have been proudly telling everyone what I have been told by the company, the company tells us and the clients that they MAY not buy back the gold, which means if the clients have to keep it with 25% loss and so be it.
Then comes the hibah cut, comms cut and followed by the delays and all. I been through hell with my clients on that. The other thing that has everyone puzzled was the GOLDBEAM subscriptions. Until now I don’t see anything benefiting the members and where does all the money go? Also why the AGM held in some remote island somewhere in Sabah? Are they making it as a holiday cum AGM?
Even till now I have observing a whole lot of “funny” things going on with the company and we are all kept at bay. I hope all these are not happening in Singapore. You lucky devil. : )
Cinimon says:
October 5, 2011 at 1:54 am (UTC 8)
Dear LMM & Kardashan,
it is indeed a shame that such things have been happening in Malaysia. However, i am proud to say that in Singapore, no such events or mishaps.
3 years of operations and we have seen thru the good and bad times with no delays in the discounts (hibah) given nor has any of the clients suffered any losses during sell back.
I guess that is the reason why we do not see complaints coming from our fellow citizens in Singapore.
It is indeed a shame and I do hope that things will improve. Glad to be in Singapore.
Happy buying anything within your means!
Lee Mei May says:
October 5, 2011 at 10:44 am (UTC 8)
Reasons not to purchase from goldcos in Malaysia’
1. Business model
Practically all goldcos operate using the same business model with just variations in the parameters and as had happened over the past 2-3 years many had failed;
2. Buying price
Buying price is set high with their own price setting association Consultant in one goldco are compulsory to be member tof the price setting GoldBeam.
3. Ethics
In particular, one goldco set its own rules and then break them with impunity. This goldco is also the grandson of one goldco with an international network but which had been suspended by the National Bank after taking in “Park-in” money of more than RM67 million. At the time of suspension, it only have RM20 million in the bank plus 5 kg of gold as reported by the Star newspaper and confirm by the lawyers of the directors when they are charged under AMLA and their case came up for mention and bail setting.
4. With wholesalers, the difference between buying and selling price is around 3% maybe even lower and the purchaser get PAMP 999.9 gold complete with certificate of origin so that their gold can be traded anywhere, any time. Buy gold as an insurance against inflation and to make money with its flexibility. Do not have to have a 3 – 4 months tenure with penalty of minimum 20% discount with early disposal and mark up of 25% on the selling price.
Orang KL says:
October 6, 2011 at 12:34 pm (UTC 8)
I was alerted by a lawyer friend that the bumi founder of that Malaysian goldco was responsible for the scam of another Malaysian goldco. The other goldco has collected upto 20 million and seized to deliver the gold to customers and until now the court case is still pending.
Papa Pamp says:
October 6, 2011 at 11:11 pm (UTC 8)
I have quit Genneva M’sia after experiancing the negative treatment by the company, the management seems to favor the ransom and threatening. Always tells you that they will chop you from the consultantship if you do not fulfil this and that and then the clients will be serviced by the company themselves and your commisions gone. Thereafter i joined CSG and then i started to see the same trend emerging. **faint**
CONCERN says:
October 7, 2011 at 7:55 am (UTC 8)
Hi Papa Pamp,
Could you explain further how CSG is starting the same trend as Geneva?
My knowledge of Geneva is only from this website, but I am interested to find out how all these companies using this business model will end up.
Carrie says:
October 7, 2011 at 12:38 pm (UTC 8)
Hi Concern,
Every business and investment carries a risk and corresponding return, right?As a buyer, the risk is max 25% of our buying cost in the immediate term since buyer has the gold and the return is 18%-30% per annum.
Firstly: In Malaysia, goldco suffers from non compliance to BAFIA and AMLA (illegal tendering – exchange gold for money with a return, which only a licensed institution can do). However, GMSB has adhered to both since they are under the Syariah platform – it’s a different ball game altogether.
Secondly, will the business model work?: The business and hence the buyer’s risk is starkly reduced if the price of gold continues to appreciate; in this respect, we have seen positive signs that the business is thriving due to the world currency crisis and perhaps will continue for some time.
Lastly, to be a buyer or consultant – we would have to ask ourselves – can we accept the risk with the promised return?
Good luck!
Papa Pamp says:
October 7, 2011 at 1:32 pm (UTC 8)
Now CSG are not as bold as Genneva. CSG till now only impose sales quotas on their agents but no threat on chopping yet,maybe later I don’t know. So far the prices are following very close to Goldbeam, in compare to Genneva would directly ransom on your commissions if certain things they ask of but not fulfilled. Then if you lag on your sales they will give you love letter and your clients still belongs to them. Then the popular quote by Papa Phillip Lim “if you don’t like it please resign”.
Carrie says:
October 7, 2011 at 12:19 pm (UTC 8)
Papa Pamp,
Very sorry to hear your experience resulting in your exit and you are not alone feeling that way. We learn to turn a deaf ear to some of the “unnecessary” threats uttered and go about our own business. There were many issues which they needed to sort out and pissing many off along the way, transition from Samudra to GMSB (but the transition was necessary to safeguard the buyers). But GMSB is a rough diamond in the making and things are looking up; they have set up the trust account, they are doing direct credit for the hibah now, they are buying up a bank now, they have cleaned up their website, they have flyers now to help distributors – these are promises carried out.
Hope this business will work for you eventually..
Lee Mei May says:
October 10, 2011 at 8:09 am (UTC 8)
Dear Carrie,
Have you got the time to read the 2 contributions from “Gold Bug” and “Cry foul”? Well, I guess you have no time for all these “negative” comments. Anyway, what “cry foul” mentioned is something which was planned and implemented more than a year ago when Samudra set up a panel of “cold callers” to bring in customers and “errant customers”. Anyway what “Gold Bug” projected is a very realistic and likely scenerio and that is the first to fail is GMSB. The signs are all there :
1. Pay into “trust fund” managed by Shariah Committee under their own pay-roll and collect gold later. Isn’t this deposit taking when customer pays the money but does not get the gold as it should rightfully be in a buy and sell business. The goldco can tell all and sundry that the money is safe in a “trust account” which is a little bit like the TGL GSS gold in Cisco. I think all customers should find out whether
a. the scheme is legal
b. whether the money in the trust account can be disbursed back to the customer in the event the goldco collapse.
Please note that, it is not the scarcity of gold in the market that prompt the goldco to resort to such a scheme, but that their funds are running out and they want a free ride. I know that gold is freely available since with the gold price down (from its high above USD1900 per ounce), I have been buying physical gold.
The perpetual promotions is another sign of poor business. Added to that, the goldco do not mention either their total sale or new sales at their consultant meetings are signs that business is not going as normal. With sales of a billion plus RM to “loyal” customers who keep renewing (roll over tenure), they need a minimum monthly new sales of RM130 million to survive. Is this what they are doing. If so, their monthly turnover should be near RM2 billion since at the end of 2010, they already have monthly turnover of RM1 million.
Hey, Carrie, I am still waiting to hear from you which of the “negative” views expressed is not true? Does silence means consent? Or, are you going the way of the goldgoose of making sweeping statements like “principal assured”.
If you care to look at the listings of “banks for sale”, there are “Swiss” banks on the market for less than USD2 million. Care to buy one? I guess, it is more a liabiltiy than an asset.
Whatever happened to the “last goldco standing” announced by PL that the Finance Ministry already issued a “letter” limiting gold trading to “Scheduled Businesses”. Is the goldco’s Scheduled business in gold trading or “Leasing and Factoring”? Have you ever thought of the welfare of your customers or are you just after your golden ricebowl just like PL, Pat Lu and fat mama?
Gold Bug says:
October 9, 2011 at 3:46 pm (UTC 8)
Cinimon,
Let us try to picture what will happen to Singapore GV (SGV) when GMSB collapses:
1. GMSB assets will be frozen
2. Singapore customers rush to sell gold back to SGV
3. SGV does not have enough cash to buy back, hence need to sell gold to open market (realizing a 10% loss each time they do so) to cough up enough money to buy back
4. Once the method in 3. can no longer sustain the cash outflow, they will close shop (either SGV close the shop themselves, or the police will shut them down due to police reports made by unhappy customers)
5. The SGV directors will flee the country with gold and cash
6. The customers holding a cheque from SGV (from sell back) and the customers who have paid but have not received the gold will suffer 100% loss. The customers holding the gold from SGV will suffer 25% loss.
I wonder if you or your family or your friends have the ability to stomach 100% loss and say “so be it”. I wonder if you would say you are glad to be in Singapore if you were investing in Madoff’s ponzi scheme or Lehman Brothers’ mini bonds.
I am totally fine with your decision to invest in Genneva, but I am not fine with you making wrongful personal accusations of people on this forum just because you don’t have any legitimate reasons to defend your arguments. It is a reflection on your personality.
BBQ says:
October 11, 2011 at 2:38 pm (UTC 8)
Whatever GMSB is doing, the unfriendly side of BNM will be on their watch. If they are not careful, your description No.1 will be realistic
Cinimon says:
October 13, 2011 at 4:34 am (UTC 8)
Let us try to picture what will happen to Singapore GV (SGV) when GMSB collapses:
(Dear Gold Bug,
in reply to your thread and mine in brackets)
1. GMSB assets will be frozen
(I really thought that happened before??? so if their assets are frozen like you said “assets”…)
2. Singapore customers rush to sell gold back to SGV
(SGV or GVS or GVSG has been tested with that once before if you have realised)
3. SGV does not have enough cash to buy back, hence need to sell gold to open market,realizing a 10% loss each time they do so to cough up enough money to buy back
(3 years + ago when GV or if you like to so call it SGV, back when gold was just $50 odd per grams, so let us just average out the gold that are circulating in the market right now… you confirmed it’s a 10% lost if gold hedge in the past liquidated in the current trend sums that up?)
4. Once the method in 3. can no longer sustain the cash outflow, they will close shop, either SGV close the shop themselves, or the police will shut them down due to police reports made by unhappy customers
(Even major banks and any other corporation, insurance companies, telcos, will close down if 100/100 clients are unhappy, think about it…)
5. The SGV directors will flee the country with gold and cash
(Nah, they will stay and stand trial, common…flee where with so much gold to carry??? why don’t you try fleeing with just 20kgs in your backsack. My guess is that they will each take 1 bar with stacks and bundles of cheques and cash so they can be as undetectable as possible and maybe book first class and fly to Malaysia or anywhere else that may want to suggest?)
6. The customers holding a cheque from SGV from sell back and the customers who have paid but have not received the gold will suffer 100% loss. The customers holding the gold from SGV will suffer 25% loss.
(Let’s just say I received a cheque and decided to bank in after 1 week, 1 month, 3months???guess I wouldn’t, would you?
Customers who paid but have not received the gold?
You give me the cash, I make sure you get the 999.9 gold on the spot.
If you can’t stomach the 25% then I would strongly recommend that you not even dream of it. By the way, that marginal risk diminishes as you go along or does it not?).
I wonder if you or your family or your friends have the ability to stomach 100% loss and say “so be it”. I wonder if you would say you are glad to be in Singapore if you were investing in Madoff’s ponzi scheme or Lehman Brothers’ mini bonds.
(100% lost??? I know about these Madoff’s ponzi scheme or Lehman Brothers’ mini bonds like you said, maybe there is more of those that you may wanna highlight since you brought it up??? guess the gold in your hands are worthless?)
I am totally fine with your decision to invest in Genneva, but I am not fine with you making wrongful personal accusations of people on this forum just because you don’t have any legitimate reasons to defend your arguments. It is a reflection on your personality.
(You know what Gold Bug, after your comments, I kinda find that Lee Mei May reflects more of a knowledgeable personality although there are certain Issues that I may not see eye to eye but that doesn’t mean I do not acknowledge her pointers and so here I go again…
I am not advising anyone to buy but, If you can’t stomach that over 25% marginal that diminishes in 13 months base on a flat trend not forgetting that I am either on a 30 or 90 days sales contract, I then strongly advise that you should not even be in this forum at all.
I truly apologise if my personality reflects badly but I just can’t seem to understand on why is it that it is so hard to understand that the whole point to this is -
1) Never buy anything on borrowed money especially if like what many would so call it investment because if things turn the other way, you will be in deep shit.
2) In everything there is a risk, be it a Property, Stocks, Commodities and even down to buying a car has a risk, if it is not within your reach, don’t go borrowing a ladder to get it cos there wouldn’t be a cushion when you fall.
3) I get the gold immediately when I pay up so if I don’t get it, I don’t enter at all. It is my choice to make a decision and I stand by my decisions no matter what the outcome may be, we are all adults so if shit hits the ceiling, I clean my own mess.
Basically, I do my own calculated risk and my fingers point to no one if things don’t go well and if things go well, I try my best to bless others.
I buy what I can afford to.
cry-foul says:
October 8, 2011 at 12:06 am (UTC 8)
Hi Papa Pamp and others enthutiastic bloggers of Genneva,
I have to warn some of you who have clients selling back the gold for refund cash. After filling the new form, with whatever reason of the sell back written on the form, a staff from the company will call the client to ask what is the reason for sell back and if the client give a reason of migration or anything similar, the company will deploy their in-house consultants (non agency) to follow up with your client and they will carry on from there. If the client is succesfully convinced by them to stay on, the client will be transfered under the company and you get nothing. Then you will be under suspicion of jumping ship. It happened to me! Dont believe? Try it yourself.
Carrie says:
October 11, 2011 at 9:57 pm (UTC 8)
So sorry to hear your case. I hope you have tried writing and reasoned with them.
Lee Mei May says:
October 11, 2011 at 11:58 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Carrie,
I am sure you attended the Shariah/AMLA/Bafia seminar, so I am just wondering whether you hear the same talks all the other attendees heard. Anyway, if at those moments you were at the toilet or just went out to take a breather, there is always the notes in the handout to remind you. The following may be of interest :
1. Six (6) Tenets of the Syariah Platform
One of the Tenets specifically mention that Seller cannot sell something not owned by him/her illustrated by “cannot sell a bird flying in the air or a fish swimming in the sea”
So, the new “Trust Fund” is doing exactly that, selling gold which the goldco does not own. Result : Is the goldco still shariah compliant?
2. By collecting full payment without delivering the gold within a allowable period, is the goldco not indulging in “Deposit Taking” which is another point amplified by the Punjabi lawyer in his presentation on BAFIA.
3. Please study your contract and you can find a term where it is mentioned that the goldco can, after receiving full payment, either deliver the gold physically or “constructively”. “Constructively” can be construed to mean that the goldco is deemed to have delivered the gold to the customer even if they had only issue a Certificate of Ownership.
Please note that collateral is the gold even though the value of the gold is very much less than what is being paid for. Originally, it was one day delivery after full payment, then it is two days and now “don’t know when” because it is not specified. The goldco had argued that they have so many branches and with varying demand, they cannot re-stock in time. But under the shariah compliant platform isn’t it an obligation for the goldco to own what it sells and if they do not have the gold then they have to tell the customer that the gold is “sold out” and come back another day. Remember the TigNet episode. If we do not learn from history, we will repeat history.
First the perpetual promotions
Then draging the delivery of the gold
Maybe, it is an invitation for another 21/7/2009 incident as the desparation is showing.
merlion says:
October 12, 2011 at 1:47 pm (UTC 8)
Ms Lee MM,
I’ve followed your postings regarding the Genneva gold savings scheme on this blog and am impressed with your almost crusade like tenacity in exposing the scheme for what it is. An old friend who has been with Genneva Malaysia as “consultant” for over a year tried to get me to participate. As a seasoned financial & investment professional of many years, the whole thing appeared so flim flam I turned down his participation proposal tactlessly; and may have injured a long friendship in the act. This friend had got 10 other people involved and did not like my immediate negative comments and risk assessment on the gold savings scheme. I am therefore doing some basic research on Genneva. Thank you for sharing your frank comments and do keep it up. I, too, am alarmed at their many promotions of late. It looks like Genneva’s building up to some cataclysmic event. Cheers.
kardashan says:
October 12, 2011 at 5:56 pm (UTC 8)
Sounded like the company is trying out a park-in but doesnt shown it as ‘straight to the point’. Are they aware what they are doing?
klbull says:
October 13, 2011 at 9:26 am (UTC 8)
Dear all,
Stripped down to its skeletal framework, I see Genneva as a ‘deposit’ taking scheme infused with an element of multi-level marketing, using physical gold as a blinder to distract and confuse participants. The ‘deposit’ is the 25% premium paid upfront to buy physical gold. Focus on this 25% premium and not the gold bars to understand what Genneva is doing.
Martin Lee says:
October 13, 2011 at 10:36 am (UTC 8)
Good point klbull.
Lee Mei May says:
October 14, 2011 at 9:02 am (UTC 8)
Dear Kibull,
It is a pleasure to see a fellow contributor who looks at basic package of the goldcos. There one aspect though which I would like to highlight and that is :
The goldcos have no income stream other than from the gold which they sell at a premiun. From this income, the goldco has to pay
1. “Hibah” assumed at 2%;
2. Consultants commission, assumed at 0.8%;
3. Operating expenses assumed at 1%:
4. Overheads a big part of which cannot be mentioned but which is left to the readers’ imagination. PDRM tailgating and then suddenly all silence, why Kuchai Lama is so free from robberies and snatch thefts; why a shariah compliant goldco can operate without sticking fully to the tenets of the platform (must own before selling) and is taking payment, even if it is into a “Trust Fund” controled by their own in house Shariah Committee, not deposit taking? Assumed at 0.5%.
Adding the above gives 4.3%. Assuming monthly sales at RM1 billion, expenses comes to RM43 billion. Assuming the profit on sale is a neat 25% (which is high considering they buy gold from banks, to break even, sales has to be RM172 million. Assuming 10% from topping up, new sales still has to be RM154.8 million. Now you can see the frantic efforts by PL & Co to get more Con-Sultans and having the perpetual promotions to get the new sales.
Does it surprise anybody that while the Singapore “Branch” have been told off (warned) by MAS when they tried to take full payment without delivering the gold to the customer, the Malaysian authorities had been very silent on the “trust fund” and the goldco had been telling all interested parties that they have the authorities approval.
What do they call those companies which pay old customers with revenue from new customers and which does not have any other sources of income?
Doesn’t need a soothsayer to tell us what is next when all the signs are already there.
1. Perpetual promotions;
2. Gold delivery delayed from one day to 2 days and now with the “trust fund” which, if I may say is pure “deposit taking”.
All TigNet needed was 2 weeks to disappear. Will history be repeated? Will you be affected? If you wait for the stampede to start, you are already too late and will be crushed with 100% losses.
Please look at the Chinese word for “GREED” and we may learn something from it.
klbull says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:30 am (UTC 8)
Dear Lee MM,
Thank you for your comments. You and I may see through it but many others have caught gold fever and cannot see through a haze of greed and avarice. They are blinded by the physical gold and the high monthly returns. They can’t see their 25% premium for gold purchase as an unsecured ‘deposit’. In his eagerness to recruit me, a friend who is a substantial consultant-cum-participant in Genneva recently showed me a check made out for over RM200k, his cut for one month. He really believes the Genneva hocus pocus about the magical secret formula they use to hedge and trade in gold to generate wealth, which they then want to share with others.
Such unparalleled generosity on the part of Genneva’s principals! He will not heed my words so it’s caveat emptor for him and his group who have millions in the scheme. I agree, something’s happening soon, all the signs point to one big push before the sky caves in.
BBQ says:
October 14, 2011 at 7:22 pm (UTC 8)
there are other companies other than GMSB sellng at high price. The legitamate price of gold retailing is set by FGJAM. Anyone selling more than that are over pricing, of corse GMSB said they have Goldbeam to set their price but its not the general body for the gold trade like FGJAM who governs all the gold retailers in Malaysia. The authoraties should scrutinize the goldcos on the over pricing beyond FGJAM.
Magnum PI says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:28 pm (UTC 8)
The so called trust fund and the 25% mark up over the actual retail value of the gold are being used in the ‘undisclosed’ operation expenses, why do you think the 3 datos trial has been posponed over and over again and the cops suddently quiet down? Even Gold Label did the same by contributing some of their operations fund so their trial being delayed till maybe end of time?
In case none of us didnt notice, last time during the Genneva Sdn Bhd before they got raided, they follow FGJAM price at 2.5% rebates and still they didnt complain they didnt make money. So why now after Samudra GV they claim if they follow FGJAM at 2.5% hibah cant make money? Is it a big portion of the hibah went to some customers who no need to purchase gold from them? If you know what i mean.
So all you people who buys and gold from this goldcos are helping to feed the fatcats and yet many of you cry foul of the corrupt government and support Bersih,
Con-sultans are the biggest contributors to the fatcats, if none of you go out there and tell the deceptions to the public, no one is contributing to the corrupt parties.
Observer 2 says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:42 pm (UTC 8)
Guess I’m not the only one who thinks LMM is a paid blogger.. Almost 5 out of 10 posts are her comments, I can’t think of any other reasons why would someone be so actively involved in this blog without any intention or agenda. I have nv seen anyone who is making good $$ from own biz n still so free to keep on posting -ve comments n being maul by other bloggers n yet still so insisting there is no hidden agenda..
Actions always specks louder than words.. Unless u ve an extremely righterous personality or u ve being seriously conned by coasters before and if u LMM, really is one of these 2 characters, im sorry n a salute to u
serene sia says:
October 14, 2011 at 5:33 pm (UTC 8)
Paid blogger? Is there such a job? If there is such a job i wont mind making it a career, i dont blog here so often so i should not be branded a paid blogger right? LOL. Remember Voices Above Noises? He’s more often than LMM and whole time protecting GMSB. So who pays him to blog? Is it Phillip Lim or Poh Ted An? Funny about it that he stop blogging here ever since KC Liew left the company. Who pays LMM to blog i am intrested to know. Is it Public Bank? Is it Unit Penyasatan Khas of BNM? It cannot be a competitor goldco because if one goldco trying to ruin GMSB will eventually benefits all other goldcos in the same trade, there are more than 10 goldcos doing the same business. Why do others the favor? Maybe LMM could share who are her clients, starting a PAID BLOGGING AGENCY is not a bad idea. LOL
Lee Mei May says:
October 15, 2011 at 10:43 am (UTC 8)
Dear All,
The following are not privileged information but information filed with the Company Commission of Malaysia or Suruhanjaya Syarikat Malaysia
Company name : Genneva Malaysia Sdn. Bhd.
Last old name : Dimensi Sentosa Sdn. Bhd.
Date of change : 01-12-2010
Company number : 592576-A
Date of registration : 16-9-2002
Business Address : 1A, Persiaran Titiwangsa 3, Off Jalan Pahang
53200 Kuala Lumpur
Nature of Business : General Contractor, General Trading
Authorised capital : RM100,000.00
Paid up capital : RM50,000.00 (50,000 shares of RM1.00 each)
Shareholders : Zailand bin Baharudin (670101-10-5489)
10,000 shares
Siti Norehan Binti Nohd Noor
(620607-08-5256) 40,000 shares
Directors : Philip Lim Jit Meng
Ahmad Khairuddin bin Ilias
Tan Liang Keat
Yap Siew Cheng
(Addresses available)
Financial Information : Blank (0.0 asset, 0.00 liabilities)
Search done in end September 2011
Please think for yourself after digesting the above information. Good luck with your free flowing “Hibah” but please take care of your customers. Do not let the commission blind you from the hard facts.
Questions : Who are the shareholders?
Why are the Directors not shareholders even with one share
each?
Why is the business address not at Kuchai Lama?
Customers are putting millions of Ringgit into this
Company’s “Trust Fund” (who are the administrators of
this “Trust Fund”) and delivery of physical gold is “later”
and therefore customers without the collateral is incurring
100% risks.
I am not doing this for people like you who are Fatcats with vested interests, but for the sake of the Uncles and Aunties who are being led to put their money into this scheme.
Oh my God says:
October 15, 2011 at 8:34 pm (UTC 8)
WTF! RM50,000 paid up capital only?! If they wrap up to whom they are going to pay the RM50,000? Probably only Phillip Lim’s clients to get reimbursement.
Nathan Kadair says:
October 16, 2011 at 12:29 am (UTC 8)
Hats off to you LMM, I have obtained this report from SSM and I don’t dare to post it up here, simply would not want to offend some fat cats, it is exactly the same report and I am testifying it’s authenticity. I’ve done this enquiry with SSM some months back and the paid up capital have not changed. With this amount is very likely a company would just wrap up and go with no fuss, what’s millions compare to 50k? Even 500k is nothing as a paid up.
Lee Mei May says:
October 16, 2011 at 1:20 am (UTC 8)
Dear Mr. Nathan Kadair,
In the past if the goldco folds the customers loss is only 30% or maybe a bit more, but with the “Trust Fund” it is gonna be 100%. With their own “trustees” they will empty the “Trust Fund” before flying off for the Sunshine holidays. How can the authorities allow the collection of full (100%) payment without physical gold delivery to the customer. COLLECTING PAYMENT WITHOUT DELIVERY OF GOODS IS DEPOSIT TAKING UNDER BAFIA, TRUST FUND OR NO TRUST FUND.
The Mother of all scams is unfolding right before your eyes. Take heed or get hit.
wylan goh says:
October 16, 2011 at 1:44 am (UTC 8)
The compliance dept of BNM will close eyes because the have the cake also but Unit Khas of BNM is different story,we shall see what would be the latest devalopment later on. Somehow i smell a rat.
klbull says:
October 16, 2011 at 10:43 am (UTC 8)
A word on the Trust Fund. The security of the Trust Fund is only as good as the strength, reputation and integrity of the the Trustee, which in the case of Genneva Gold Savings, is highly questionable. Most likely, ‘same gang’ with GMSB directors, not necessarily merciless mercenaries without conscience but possibly chumps tempted by easy pocket money. With the ante raised so high, expect more tricks to be unleashed for the final harvest.
Sean says:
October 16, 2011 at 10:21 am (UTC 8)
50,000 paid up for a company that claims to do 1b sales is kind of pathetic, even previously Gold Label has 1m+ paid up.
Lee Mei May says:
October 16, 2011 at 10:48 am (UTC 8)
Dear Sean,
It is not only the paid up capital but also just look at the shareholders and you will see that they are willing to abandon ship anytime.
Previously the customers still have the gold as collateral but now with the “Trust Fund” the risk is 100% until the physical delivery of gold.
Do we see another TigNet on the near horizon. This time is a Tsunami of immense proportion.
Why are the authorities allowing “deposit taking” when MAS in Singapore already warned the Singapore company not to “play, play” and deliver the gold the customers buy. Now is October 2011 and PL’s oft repeated plan is to retire by end 2011. Maybe he is already planning his Sunshine holidays with his whole family and his extended family.
Naz says:
October 16, 2011 at 11:57 pm (UTC 8)
Following LMM’s info from SSM, perhaps someone can do some investigation on En. Khairuddin ,he has some connection to Dato Mohammad Khan. Both were dealing with the middle east business for the company called Dinarius Dirham. Coincidently this company’s launching was also graced by Tun Dr. Mahathir, sounds familiar? He was also romoured about breaching some accounts in LTKM Bhd.
Lee Mei May says:
October 17, 2011 at 12:53 am (UTC 8)
Dear All,
It is really sad that the authorities being charged with regulating the rules under BAFIA have not immediately acted in the fashion similar to MAS in Singapore. Is it going to be a case of “pagar makan padi”. Please think of the immense consequences of another TigNet incident.
The Customers must realise that in the first instance, they are into this scheme because they have the gold collateral and their maximum risk is less than 40%.
NOW WITH THE TRUST FUND AND NON DELIVERY OF GOLD, THE RISK IS 100%. TRUST FUND OR NO TRUST FUND, WITH NON DELIVERY OF THE PHYSICAL GOLD, IT IS DEPOSIT TAKING AND THE AUTHORITIES MUST EXPLAIN WHY IT IS NOT TAKING ACTION EVEN IN THE FORM OF A STERN PUBLIC WARNING. THE CUSTOMERS MUST NOW DECIDE THAT IT IS VERY RISKY TO BE INVOLVED AS THEY RISK LOSING ALL. ACT NOW TO SAFEGUARD YOUR MONEY. PLEASE DO NOT LET THE CON-SULTANS CON YOU AS THE CON-SULTANTS ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN THEIR COMMISSION.
For the information of the con-sultans, the goldco is now doing their direct marketing of their products with advertisement in various media including the STAR. The Star had done fantastic reports for another scam known as 1World Energy in their publication “Shanghai”
klbull says:
October 17, 2011 at 9:08 am (UTC 8)
LeeMM
BNM is unlikely to act without specific complaints made to them, with details and hard evidence. The people who can complain are those caught in the Scheme, like your gullible aunties and uncles but they are unlikely to, unless someone encourages and helps them to do so. Well, here’s a chance to be an activist. Are you game?
It’s also a Catch 22 situation, if the Scheme stops for whatever reason, many won’t get back all their money and will face long delays getting it.
kardashan says:
October 17, 2011 at 1:05 am (UTC 8)
When KC Liew left the company in a hurry i knew something was very wrong.
Oh my God says:
October 17, 2011 at 8:58 am (UTC 8)
My question. Previously the SSM report on GMSB was 51% share belongs to Khairuddin and 49% share belongs to Samudra GV. If I am not mistaken the paid up capital was a million at least, why are the shares being reversed out from Khairuddin and Smudra GV? Does that means Khairuddin don’t own the company now? Why does the paid up being shrunk down to 50,000 from 1m?
Business address was in Kuchai Lama in the old SSM but now changed. Who are the other 2 share holders we don’t know?
Lee Mei May says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:51 pm (UTC 8)
Dear All,
What prompt a great number of our contributors is the mercenary aspects of all they do. Everything is link to money and payments and without it nothing moves.
I repeat, I do it for fun and nobody is paying me. I have my money machine which makes the money for me and all I do is monitor the market and build my profit on averaging. My spread (between selling and buying) is less than 3% and so if the price of gold goes up by more than 3%, that is my profit. So I will just answer as much of your imaginations as possible. If you accept it well and good. If not, it does me no pain. As I mentioned earlier, I only answer to and is guided by my conscience and I can afford that since I am not indebted to anybody.
To Serene :
Frankly, I do not consider myself a blogger but as one who had seen many goldcos using the same/similar business models fail leaving behind broken dreams and lives. Examples : TigNet, TGL, GPU and a host of lesser knowns. I have also seen the grandfather of one leading goldcos, doing “park-in” scheme with high “interest” of 4.5%. Now this suspended goldco has more than RM67 million parked in but only RM20 million in the suspended account and 5 kg of gold as reported by The Star on the day the case of the 3 directors was mentioned in court charged under AMLA. BAFIA charges were added later.
My clients are the uncles and aunties who had been lured into such schemes but I do it pro-bono (free of charges). I get enough out of the genuine gold business as mentioned earlier.
Regarding working with Uncle Teh of Public Bank: If you have read my contributions you will see that I call the share market, mutual fund, forex et as zero sum games where, Winner + agent commission = loser. How to play these games oh?
BNM? Not safe because of many planted spies on the payroll. Would any intelligent person do such a stupid thing, but I have some official contacts with them.
To Observing and Observer 2
Please see my comments to Serene above. Your are always the money machine, working your hearts out and in the end loses all to 100% risks schemes where you make full payment but do not get physical gold delivery until very much later. So you part with your money without the collateral. One fine day the TigNet incident will be repeated. Own a money machine and time is always on your side and money will keep rolling in.
Make clear who I am : I am a kind gentle lady with loads of time because I have my money machine and hates being a money machine myself;
Why waste precious time writing : Please see above and I do not for one moment think that I am wasting time as long as I can reduce the catastrofic effect of the collapse of a goldco by guiding uncles and aunties away from this “game”
the money machine : Over the past 30 years gold had been continuously on the uptrend and if your spread is less than 3% any price increase greater than 3% is profit and I get better than 3% spread (< 3%). Does it need a genius to guess the result.. Paying 25% premium of gold is not my game and with the "trust fund", the risk is 100%
Ranting of a fanatic : Have you ever seen or felt the auguish and pain of all those hurt by the failed goldcos? You do not have to be a saint to empathise. Remeber the case of Joey auntie with the collapsed TGL?
Heresay : Do you have to be criminal to know that crime does not pay or does RPK needs to go to hunt for his information. I have all the seminar material and "Deep Throats" who keep me informed better than many Senior Con-Sultans and this is because, my contacts are plain fed up with the chameleon changes but unable to voice out their feelings or face the "resign" shout from PL. Want to hear the story of why KC left? Want to hear the story of how four new Datos got their datoship?
Want to hear about the goldco itself and the background of those who you are trusting with your hard earned money? Well, as you said – HERESAY LAH
klbull says:
October 15, 2011 at 9:59 am (UTC 8)
Dear all,
It’s up to readers whether they buy LMM’s explanations but I, for one, am inclined to her side of the story. She is passionate about what she does and it shows in her postings. Money cannot buy such commitment. You can only admire her crusade- like dedication.
The one thing I don’t quite agree with her is her antipathy towards the stock market which she labels a zero sum game. It is not necessarily so. As in any investment instrument, shares investing exhibit co-relating risk/reward ratios. The fight between greed and fear is never ending. The stock market also attracts its fair share of crooks and knaves preying on the unsuspecting. Volatile equities are not for the shortsighted, or the fainthearted, or the easy street types and it can be hard work finding that listed company with all the right attributes to invest in for the long haul. After 20 years, I’m still looking, and learning, and paying my dues.
Gordon Chew says:
October 16, 2011 at 6:24 pm (UTC 8)
Thank you Lee Mei May for revealing the truth to us, I was having an impression that the company is worth a few millions in paid up sighting their overwhelming turnovers. I guess I have to tell my agent to find someone else who willing to part their money.
BBQ says:
October 16, 2011 at 11:11 pm (UTC 8)
Kudos to LMM, keep up the good work. Many people will thank you for the nobel contributions and keep the disasters of TGL & TigNet from repeating. Thumbs up to you.
Lee Mei May says:
October 17, 2011 at 9:40 am (UTC 8)
Dear All,
Once Serene Sia mentioned in this thread that as long as you are holding on to the gold, it is alright (or words to this effect). Now, for quite a while, the customers won’t be holding any physical gold after parting with their money. All they are holding is faith in a “trust fund” managed by none other than the goldco as their own “trustee”.
The key question remains : IF NO GOODS IS DELIVERED AFTER FULL PAYMENT IS IT NOT DEPOSIT TAKING AND IS IT NOT SIMILAR TO THE NOTORIOUS “PARK-IN WHERE MILLIONS WAS RACKED IN?
Sudra says:
October 17, 2011 at 10:07 am (UTC 8)
Looking at the situation imerging is not looking good. Suddenly the company tries to initiate a camouflage park-in in the so-called trust fund and change of the SSM status. I checked on the net on Dinarius Dirham actually delayed delivery of the gold and the money paid by customers were also held by their appointed internal ‘kaki’ as trustee and also mentioned on the net that a report to police was made on the reason of a group of customers paid and didn’t get their gold and later the company freeze operations. Time to open your eyes. Dinarius was also a big company with International set-ups. Mahathir came to grace their opening ceremony, somewhat very familiar.
klbull says:
October 17, 2011 at 10:34 am (UTC 8)
It was always a thinly disguised deposit taking scheme, starting with the 25% premium on gold purchase, and now extended to 125% if no gold is delivered. Bit by bit , so many get taken in by the lure of’ ‘hibah’ , of physical gold and their own greed. This Trust Fund appears to be a crafty ploy to dredge everything in their path before the disappearing act.
For those who earlier surrendered their tested gold bullion to Genneva for whatever reason, and then got it back from them, I would make sure it is the real thing and not a ‘sting’. Pardon my skepticism but the finale appears near and all tricks will be employed to part you and your money.
factsUp says:
October 17, 2011 at 1:04 pm (UTC 8)
now i m scared to sell back my gold to them… what if the company posseses back my gold n dont pay me immediately? will there be a chance they will delay my payment giving reason they will secure my money in their trust fund for a period and all that jazz?
dari sekinchan says:
October 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm (UTC 8)
Wll FactsUp you are not wrong, anything is possible especially now we learnt about some unexpected movements by the company. Since we see this as “the turkey is about to be done in the oven” scenario theres no telling is there any ill intention with the directors, i guess the best is to stay safe. If i were you i will keep the gold until the value is ripe and i will sell it in the open market.
klbull says:
October 17, 2011 at 4:00 pm (UTC 8)
Well…..you can go to their office and on the pretext of surrendering the physical gold and see what the Genneva people will do. If they try to defer payment, or use other delaying tactics, you know something is not right. I think all of us are keen to know what will transpire if you do that. Just don’t leave either gold or money in their custody.
dari sekinchan says:
October 17, 2011 at 5:34 pm (UTC 8)
You wanna be the guinee pig? they will recieve back the gold from you but how long for them to release payment to you? my last experiance was 5 working days after surrender the gold. Those 5 days could be sleepless nights now you know some inside stories.
klbull says:
October 17, 2011 at 7:52 pm (UTC 8)
sekinchan,
No guinea pig required. Pretext means pretend ; you don’t actually surrender the gold, you play act that you intend to just to determine their reaction. You keep the gold with you. What have you got to lose except some time and effort, your funds are already tied up with them. However, Genneva people’s reaction will be most interesting.
Sean says:
October 17, 2011 at 11:09 pm (UTC 8)
FactsUp,
Now it looks the ‘dangerious’ moment to return back the gold to the company, even they wont ransom your money temporary in their trust fund but even they take few days to release the cheque to you is already heart pounding, not to mention waiting 2-3 days for the cheque to clear. Now the sell back we have to take certain risk. What if right after you return the gold today and tomorow the freeze, then how?
Magnum PI says:
October 18, 2011 at 12:33 am (UTC 8)
Now that we knew of their discreet movements, changing status in the SSM behind our backs. It is precarious to buy and even sell back to them as you won’t get your gold or money back immediately. Who ever buys from and sells gold to GMSB will take the risk during that uncertain time gap.
Those who do business with this goldco, wish you good luck.
KC says:
October 17, 2011 at 7:28 pm (UTC 8)
Help!! I’m in the same boat as FactsUp. My contract is due next month and now there’s this beautifully enticing 2.1% hibah which my consultant is advising me to take up. Should I return the gold and wait for my money or keep the gold and sell it in the open market? What is the current market price?
Sean says:
October 17, 2011 at 10:59 pm (UTC 8)
Have you not saw the posting by LMM on the SSM status? Go ahead and renew your gold for 2.1% , now they are putting up the bait for the flock of fishes to enter the net and then….
Good luck !
Pat Lu says:
November 6, 2011 at 12:08 am (UTC 8)
Hi KC and FactsUp,
Sorry, didn’t mean to laugh but if you did lose sleep, you deserve it. You could have simply called your respective consultants for details. 
Hope all the comments by non-buyers and non-Genneva consultants here didn’t give you sleepless nights. LOL!
It’s a very simple procedure…
1. Seven days before expiry or within 7 on expiry of contract, submit Customer Sell Back Request Form with docs (ask your consultant).
2. Genneva will give you a date to return your gold and you can collect your cheque the very next day.
It’s a breeze and no questions asked by the staff.
Hope this helps. Sleep well.
Pat Lu (012) 210 4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
Lee Mei May says:
October 18, 2011 at 12:17 am (UTC 8)
Dear Observing,
Please keep observing while the world either passes you by or like the goldco just whack you till kingdom come. What you should question, you don’t. When the truth is repeatedly made known to you, you keep raising questions.
The gold business is really simple :
1. Do not be greedy and go into any scam because the world outside is full of crocodiles besides snakes and conmen;
2. Gold is an insurance against inflation;
3. Look for narrow spreads between the selling and buying price. If the spread is, say 3%, once the price goes up more than 3%, you can sell and profit. No fixed tenure or time limit. If you are speculating, study the trend and then buy low and sell high, but you must have holding power. So do not commit all your funds at one go and leaving you with no reserve.
As long as you are holding to physical gold, the long term trend is ALWAYS UP.
I am not an arrogant person, but if you feel that you do not want to believe, so be it. I owe you nothing and you also do not owe me anything. Just stop whining and get going. If you are happy getting scammed, so be it and you know where to look for the Con-Sultans and if you do not know any, I can recommend you some. As they said, what the hack?
Forceum says:
October 18, 2011 at 1:44 am (UTC 8)
hi LMM,
With regards to FactsUp’s issue, how would you advice? When due should he / she return the gold or should not risk it? What are the chances of this goldco default our payment should we return back the gold? Do you think they will pull another Tig Net act by collecting back the gold and ka-put? !!
Lee Mei May says:
October 18, 2011 at 6:33 am (UTC 8)
Dear Forceum,
The goldco had planned and stage managed the show from day 1.
The forced migration started about 6 months ago and now is the time for the renewal of tenure for most of the customers. Magnum PI advise is sound. The trend is for gold prices to go up at the end of the year. So, if you keep the gold, just wait for the opportune time to sell. This way, you may take a knock, but the blow will be softer or you may just manage to break even or even end up with some profit.
You see the trend.
1. Set up gold beam to put a high premium on the gold;
2. with the migration concentrate the customer renewal into a narrow band
3. Sell up the “trust fund” and not deliver the physical gold for a period;
4. Vamoose for the long planned and awaited Sunshine holidays and be respectable bankers with their Swiss bank they bought.
Hamzah says:
October 18, 2011 at 11:46 am (UTC 8)
With such drastic change to their SSM profile i will keep my gold thank you very much.
Observing says:
October 18, 2011 at 1:18 pm (UTC 8)
Dear LMM
thank you for your response.
so your method is buy and keep physical gold and sell when the price is right.
very basic and safe.
Where can I buy and sell this physical gold in Kl?
your information will be most appreciated.
on the contact for consultants you can help me by emailing me at observing2011@gmail.com
thanks and cheers
Forceum says:
October 18, 2011 at 3:40 pm (UTC 8)
go visit mysmartgold.com
Yoogi says:
November 3, 2011 at 12:44 am (UTC 8)
Hi LMM, my friend has ask me to invest in this Genneva Singapore stuffs and even asking me to join as a consultant. I am doing my homework, n i google n i came to this martinlee site and i learn alot fm you, And i think u hv prevented me fm losing my hard earn money in the future. THANK YOU.
Another thing i would like to learn fm you is the buying n selling of physical gold.
Can u pls email me. jkmkt88@hotmail.com
Thanks n God bless You.
George says:
October 19, 2011 at 2:46 am (UTC 8)
Anyone knows whats the story with KC Liew? is he really setting up JB branch? As what i gathered he no longer have anything to do with Genneva anymore.
Lee Mei May says:
October 19, 2011 at 7:37 am (UTC 8)
Dear George,
KC is not with this goldco anymore in any official capacity and is winding down his position as a Senior Con. He has to do it discreetly as he has influential clients including royalty. Once in a while he is still doing some transactions and is also seen in other goldcos. He is also suspected to participate in this forum as “voice above Noises” and stop his tirade once he realised that he is on the way out.
Thank you Forceum for giving to Observing the website. Saves me from being viewed as an agent paid by MySmartGold. The truth be told, they really pays me but I made my profit using them as my Money Machine and not through being an agent.
FactsUp says:
October 19, 2011 at 12:52 pm (UTC 8)
MySmartgold doesn’t need to pay anyone to sell for them,they r enjoying good business just by selling online
Nur says:
October 19, 2011 at 2:02 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Lee Mei May,
To your knowledge, is Genneva going to delay my gold delivery up to 3 months and my money is so called secured by their trustee in case in the 3 months they fold up and the money will be refunded to me? Or they still will deliver the gold in a week period as usual? What is exactly the modus operandi?
Thank you
Lee Mei May says:
October 19, 2011 at 7:15 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Nur,
Both BAFIA and Shariah Compliance requires that the goods (in this case gold) be delivered physically upon full payment as one of the key tenets of the Shariah Compliance is that the Seller MUST OWN THE GOLD THAT IS BEING SOLD. This is very clearly spelt out in the seminar organised by the goldco. In case you are not sure, please refer to the notes given to all attendees. Whether the payment is made to a “Trust Fund” or to the International Marketing Director or to the clerk at the service counter is inmaterial. Therefore, to answer your question, if no gold is delivered upon full payment or at least within 3 days of completion of full payment, it is constituted as deposit taking.
The gold is your collateral and if you hold the gold your maximum exposure is less than 40% but if there is no gold it is 125% (gold already marked up 25%).
Please study the TigNet incident but this may be the Mother of Tsunami. When the Singapore Company tried something similar, the Monetory Authority of Singapore immediately slap a warning on the company, but here the situation is more complicated. If you are not will to accept 100% risk to your money, I would suggest the you do a full due diligence before parking your money in the “Trust Fund”
Nur says:
October 20, 2011 at 10:02 am (UTC 8)
Then why is the authorities don’t seems to react since it’s an offense ?
Forceum says:
October 20, 2011 at 11:40 am (UTC 8)
who says the authorities wont react? , its all about the right oppertunity to do so, do you think the authorities do not know whats going on? when theres enough complaints and evidence then you see, have they not reacted on the number of goldcos including GSB and TGL?
Lee Mei May says:
October 20, 2011 at 5:58 pm (UTC 8)
Dear Forceum,
I beg to differ from you in respect of the action by the authorities. The authorities act as REGULATORS and therefore DOES NOT NEED COMPLAINTS. MAS issued a stern warning IMMEDIATELY when they found that customers are not given the golds after full payment. Here, the authorities can act in 2 ways, viz
1. Withdraw the shariah compliance status for not complying with the tenet that the Seller can only sell what they own and not “a bird flying in the sky” or “a fish swimming in the sea”. However, there is a conflict of interest here because some key members of the Shariah Committee are also customers of the goldco as boasted by PL
2. For deposit taking under BAFIA.
What more “evidence” does the authorities need as the system is now in its third week of implementation.
The 5 datos including the 3 charged in court, PL and the Cow got their datoship by giving very favourable terms for TYT as a customer and also “using the service” of the son as an “advisor”
Malaysia Boleh. Time to migrate to mysmartgold or other physical gold trader before kena 100% loss as your collateral may never come. If in doubt, please remember your reference point as TIGNET.
Tan says:
October 21, 2011 at 5:42 pm (UTC 8)
Yes! Malaysia Boleh indeed! It is now well known the world around that Malaysia has now among the biggest scam, be it online or offline.
klbull says:
October 21, 2011 at 9:39 am (UTC 8)
LeeMM,
To expect BNM to be a ferocious “guard dog” type regulator is asking too much, especially when Genneva has ring fenced itself with highly placed political and media allies bought with favors. BNM is not like MAS, it will not act without specific complaints from the public in this case.
Lee Mei May says:
October 21, 2011 at 10:49 am (UTC 8)
MACC’s Abu Kassim says that they must receive reports before opening any investigation file but what is the take on the “billion ringgit” Customs episode?
PDRM says they must receive reports before opening any investigation file, but many reports were made on clear cases of one Bahasa main stream media abuses and all we hear is the “Sound of Silence”. They were supposed to be tailgating the goldco. Then what happened?
BNM was investigating goldcos it raided on 21/07/2009 and charges pressed in court, Now nobody knows what is happening. The standard operating procedure is to drag it until “Malaysian Lupa” and then declared case closed due to insufficient evidence.
MALAYSIA BOLEH!!!
klbull says:
October 21, 2011 at 11:24 am (UTC 8)
That’s the faulty system in Malaysia and we have to learn to live within its constraints, for now. Many government institutions are compromised almost beyond rescue, not excluding those you mentioned. We can vote to change the federal government next General Election but there are no promises the next government can do any better. Fixing a broken system will take many decades, longer than the time I have left on this earth possibly. You just do your little bit, which may be the best you can under these circumstances, and keep your sanity. You can’t save Malaysia on your own.
FactsUp says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:34 am (UTC 8)
At least we has hope of a start of fixing the broken system rather than leaving it to the old dogs that wont bother at all.
klbull says:
October 22, 2011 at 8:57 am (UTC 8)
Really? Are you aiming to help fix the broken system? I thought from your earlier comment you were one of those caught up in the Genneva Scheme ; and ‘scared to sell your gold back to them’, in your very own words. Why not help start fixing the broken system by making a report immediately to BNM on your predicament. Help prevent more from being scammed. Or is your primary goal getting your money back first before the shit hits the fan? Old dogs are smarter, they can smell a Ponzi con a mile away and don’t let greed over rule their brains.
Lee Mei May says:
October 20, 2011 at 6:15 pm (UTC 8)
Dear All,
Yesterday’s Consultants orientation day was made interesting with the testimonial from non other than the personal secretary to the minister who paid millions of the tax-payers money for a few Facebook pages. Everybody, was so excited that they forgot to ask about the “Trust Fund” park in. Well done Carol!!!! You are the way to become a millionaire if not already one and a ministership awaits you. (when your boss retires, lah)
FactsUp says:
October 22, 2011 at 1:27 am (UTC 8)
Dear LMM,
Following yr posting of GMSB’s SSM report, a friend of mine went over to SSM to request a print out copy of the report. To his surprise the officer cant trace the existance of the company in the system. He confirmed gave the correct company name and ROC no (Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd 592576-A) but somehow cant retrieve. What do u think is going on? As an enthutiastic investigator u are… Do u think u can also try and retrieve and see if u also would get the same result?
appreciate if u could also inform us of yr findings,tq
klbull says:
October 22, 2011 at 9:25 am (UTC 8)
Amazing! Why don’t you do your own investigative work instead of getting LMM or any number of friends to do a company search? Is that how you start fixing a broken system, by letting others do work you should be doing? Put your money where your mouth is. Oh sorry, your money’s with Genneva. It sucks, right?
I should’nt be so heartless when it’s plain you are shitting bricks about your money but your ignorant comment about old dogs hit a nerve. I have 3 dogs, one of which is 13 plus years old, with weak eyesight, poor hearing, little strength in her hind legs and unlikely to last long. She knows it and wants to be with us all the time. She has been a loyal faithful companion all these years and is much loved. You really should be kind to old dogs or any other old beings, canine, human or otherwise.
Lee Mei May says:
October 22, 2011 at 9:57 am (UTC 8)
Dear Kibull,
Please try not to be too hard on our friend as it takes all kinds of people to make this world beautiful (or ugly by scamming the Uncles and Aunties). Due to needs, unfortunately we have acquired greed. When they see a Tsunami coming at them, there will still be people like “observing” and “observer 2″, who will ask those trying to save them whether they are being paid to save them and these are the people who have to learn that not all people are mercenaries.
Anyway, on 19/11/2011, the goldco is having another seminar where their loyar and lackneys will go on stage and tell you about “birds in the sky” and the benefits of putting your money in a “trust fund” subject to them not flying off for their long planned Sunshine holidays in the coming days.
klbull says:
October 22, 2011 at 10:45 am (UTC 8)
Dear LMM,
Yes, it takes all kinds. I’ll try to keep my lid on. It’s just so hard to see my 13 plus year old spaniel Jeannie struggling on, taking it day by day, not whining, just accepting her fate with stoicism.
I am mulling about attending Genneva’s seminar on 19.11.11. My friend the consultant will be only too happy to invite me. Of course, I’ll go as a prospective gold obsessed investor looking for new high yielding instruments to multiply my wealth.
Lee Mei May says:
October 22, 2011 at 11:07 am (UTC 8)
Dear Kibull,
Best of luck in gold investing which is still providing the insurance and giving the best returns. Thank you.
FactsUp says:
October 24, 2011 at 5:35 pm (UTC 8)
this thread is about gold…. if u wanna talk bout dogs pls go to some dogs chatrooms
klbull says:
October 25, 2011 at 9:00 am (UTC 8)
You silly little greedy boy, FactsUp. Get your facts straight.
1.The uncalled for comment about old dogs first came from you and opened Pandora’s Box. It’s open season now on you when it comes to my canine friends.
2.This thread is not so much about gold but about gold scams and con games. Get the difference? Still gold befuddled? Need some hard lessons in life? Genneva may just give it to you, and soon.
Kalai says:
October 22, 2011 at 10:52 am (UTC 8)
Is it glitch in the SSM system or is it a concealing propaganda? This is important to know if what FactsUps’s friend finding is real because this will carry weight to what you have been advocating. Somehow even many looking at the report you have posted but finds it hard to believe its genuine because its simply unbelievable a company like GMSB could have such an indecent report. What factsUp has discovered can probably unfold a real sinister at work. I m not an investor neighter an agent of GMSB so i wont waste time doing the deligence. Its up to the people who have vested intrests in the company to find out because it concerns them.
FactsUp says:
October 24, 2011 at 5:27 pm (UTC 8)
I hv manged to get the latest print out fr SSM of GMSB profile, its accurate to what LMM posted… now i m in the delima if they r anytime gonna pak up and cabut to Brazil?
Lee Mei May says:
October 24, 2011 at 8:20 pm (UTC 8)
Dear FactsUp,
Just look at all the events leading up to now.
1. Migration from father goldco to son goldco. This is to narrow the renewal band to maximum 60 days. So if the assumption is that there is RM1.2 billion sales, the average renewal is RM20 million per day. If they deliver the gold in 5 days, then they will be holding at any one time about RM100 million worth of gold. If the grandfather do it for RM67 million of Park in money, RM 100 million can buy many Swiss banks, with left over for operating capital. However, I guess they will not do it within these 2 months since those renewing the contract paid around RM170 per gram and now the price (24/10/2011) is RM208. Hence the customer is helping the goldco to make around RM35 per gram;
2. Almost perpetual promotions:
3. Tenures reduced to 90 – 120 days;
4. Using customers gold to turn, instead of having to buy gold from the bank and now the “Trust Fund”.
So there will be no problem if you want to cash out now, but I do not know about another 120 days down the road..
Since the price at which the gold was purchase is near about what the mysmartgold or any wholesaler price in the market, maybe you can consider keeping the gold and deal with whichever wholesaler giving the narowest spread and from now on just use the gold as an insurance and earn the money from the future appreciation.
klbull says:
October 25, 2011 at 9:12 am (UTC 8)
Yes, listen to Auntie Mei May. She speaks good sense and is kind to young and old alike. Very down to earth, not mercenary and patient to the extreme. She is a good person.
P/S LMM, pardon me for my personal comment above.
Dari Sekinchan says:
October 24, 2011 at 9:57 pm (UTC 8)
Have any of you attended the meeting at GMSB? We were told that the company was `mildly` raided. Why do you think is the reason?
Oh my God says:
October 25, 2011 at 1:54 am (UTC 8)
I not renewing and not selling back my gold to them. I sense a Tig-net plot in the making.
Sudra says:
October 25, 2011 at 12:14 am (UTC 8)
“mildly raided” ? Whenever BNM comes in to mildly raid or audit or whatever they want to call it its actually a RAID ! only difference is they have yet pull the plug on them.
Kana-sai ! says:
October 25, 2011 at 1:02 am (UTC 8)
Ba-ha-ha ! Mildly raided. what a word? With some of the company’s computers being hauled out of the office premises is not so mild isnt it?
FactsUp says:
October 25, 2011 at 11:53 am (UTC 8)
dear LMM,
i didnt attend the meeting by PL yesterday but i learned about the “visitation” by BNM from a friend, did u not know about this?
Klbull,
seriously for just a tiny winy 100g is not going to hurt me, go spike on those who hv 10kgs with the company.
klbull says:
October 25, 2011 at 5:07 pm (UTC 8)
Then you must be in a very small ‘delima’ of your own making. By the way ‘delima’ in Indonesian means a pomegranate, no such word in English. Closest to it is dilemma.
Lee Mei May says:
October 25, 2011 at 7:21 pm (UTC 8)
Dear All,
On behalf of our Uncles and Aunties who still adore the goldco as the fountain of wealth, let us give our thanksgiving that the authorities did not come with trucks and police escorts to shut down the goldco as they did to the grandfather who did the Park-In scheme. Of course there are still Con-Sultans who are living in denial and saving that it is a routine “audit visit” because the goldco is a “Reporting Institution”.
The “Visit” was witnessed by many. The goldco through its spin doctor PL had no choice but to summon a “Senior Consultant” meeting since it had happened conveniently on a Tuesday which is the day for the meeting but normally only held once a month at the beginning of the month. So the damage control spin is that it was a “mild raid” bla bla bla and the blame is put at the doorstep of the consultants for their various acts of commission (such as Pat Lu’s Goldgoose but they never mentioned their own advertisement in the Star) and omission.
Frankly, there is not much that can be done at this stage. I have highlighted all there is to highlight and if people still chose to follow the wealth creation scheme with their eyes open, they should thank their lucky star that the authorities have the wisdom to follow the MAS “slap on the wrist” and not “suspend” the operation. So, it is time to reflect and see where your interests lie and where your risks are concentrated and use the wisdom to plan their future financial security.
For your information, I was spending time going through the Auditor General’s Report which contain reports of so many fantastic opportunities for people to make money that make me wonder as to why smart alacks like PL have to work so hard to earn his “millions” and take so much risks. I thought the goldco is the Mother of S**ms but the buying of 257 Armoured vehicles at RM7.5 billion which is 5 times the offered price a few months ago beats it hands down. Take care, tighten your safety belt as we are going for a VERY ROUGH RIDE”
klbull says:
October 26, 2011 at 9:42 am (UTC 8)
Operation Genneva is coming to its logical conclusion, not much more to be said about it. Many chasing fools gold will end up with goose egg on their faces. Sad for them but a lesson in life.
Operation MoS ( Mother of Scams) will continue in Malaysia so long as the present faulty system continues. Patronage, greed and corruption are endemic in Malaysian society under the present Umno dominated government. I am joining the ABU ( Anything But Umno ) movement out of sheer exasperation. Only with a change in government can participants in public thievery be brought to justice. Before the overpriced APCs, it was submarines, fighter jets, patrol boats, bloated construction contracts and so on. It won’t end without a change in government.
Sean says:
October 25, 2011 at 3:39 pm (UTC 8)
That is a serious dis-credit to the company, and why must PL wash his dirty linen in the open? Cant he just keep quiet about the raid?
Nathan Kadair says:
October 25, 2011 at 5:12 pm (UTC 8)
Lee Mei May was right all along! Now we see her prophercies come to light. Any official visits by the authoroties without an appointment is never a good sign.
Uncle Gold says:
October 26, 2011 at 6:03 pm (UTC 8)
Some things are starting to surface after a long hard debates in this blog.
Lee Mei May says:
October 27, 2011 at 8:45 am (UTC 8)
Dear All,
The goldco is justifying their “Trust Fund” and late delivery of gold by claiming that there is a supply problem and then comparing it with the purchase of machinery and automobiles. The fallacy with the arguments are :
1. There is no gold supply problem in Malaysia. Ask any trader worth his salt and he/she will demolish this argument with the question of how much is needed and he will fulfill the requirement on the basis “Money in, gold out”. Try MKS, BNM should be fully aware that there is no scarcity.
2. There is no basis for comparing a commodity/precious metal with a manufactured/capital item like cars and machinery. In precious metals retail trading, you can only sell what you own which forms a principal tenet of the shariah platform and also is a basis for the BNM to distinguish it from deposit taking under BAFIA. If you run out of stock, then you STOP TRADING and not use all devious means of making customers part with their “FULL PAYMENTS”.
The Goldco had been blaming their Con-Sultans for most of the “transgressions” brought up by BNM, but they are the one who started and condon most if not all of these, including
1. “Buy back”
The first S&P implemented has a buy back clause;
2. “Hibah”
In all the promotions, they have fixed the “hibah” payable. Any deviation is only in sementics;
3. Gold delivery
The S&P states that Gold can be delivered “constructively”, does it not amount to “Park-in”?
Anyway, as I said earlier, I heave a sigh of relief that BNM had only done a “mild raid”, and so the customer still have some time to re-consider their position before it is too late. Can a tiger change its strips? A chameleon is a chameleon. What happened to the grandfather goldco and Dinaries and the “Pillar” of the goldco? Run if you can before the tiger catches up with you and your financial security will be history.
The last days of Genneva says:
October 27, 2011 at 12:11 am (UTC 8)
Yes Klbull, some conclusions are becoming clear and being raided twice in their history is really no joke.
I wonder those clients will be selling back their gold?
Good luck to you guys
KLbull says:
October 27, 2011 at 11:37 am (UTC 8)
Well…..depending on what quantum of gold you are holding, it could be a big money question or a small money question. At current price approx. RM171k per kilo, it will be devastating if 1kilo of gold ever become ‘held in transit’ ; bullion delivered to the goldco but client not yet paid for whatever reason. Note that the consultants have since taken down their blog pages promoting Genneva Gold Savings after the BNM visit earlier this week. Instructions, no doubt, from above.
Kardashan says:
October 28, 2011 at 6:08 pm (UTC 8)
I am not surprised when incident like this happens regardless if it’s mild,mid or serious. In these recent months since the migration propaganda til now I have been suspecting somethings up but the company is hiding it from us.
william says:
November 4, 2011 at 10:40 pm (UTC 8)
Ship is finally sinking!!!
Pat Lu’s infamous mygoldgoose.wordpress.com has been deted/removed.
Lee Mei May says:
November 5, 2011 at 9:03 am (UTC 8)
Dear All,
Please heed what William had contributed.
Signs of the coming “Titanic” or Tsunami?
1. Sustainability
With more than 1 billion ringgit to service and no other income than new or re-purchase at higher prices, whichever business model the goldco is working on, it cannot be sustained unless the gold prices keep going up and/or new customers keep coming in.
2. Perpetual promotions
Ever since early this year, it is promotion after promotion and each time the “hibah” is “offered” at a higher rate costing the goldco more and more to service the “hibah”. As one of the previous promotors of the goldco said at their weekly meeting with consultants, “If the company can do business by paying their “benchmark” 1.5% hibah, why pay more. The Hari Raya Haji (Aidil Adha) promotion is going to be extended to the next promotion which is the Christmas/New year promotion and thereafter the “valentine” promotion with the theme “give gold to show your love”, then the CNY promotion, the Easter promotion and followed by Anniverary promotion for the migration. As the song says “never ending or beginning”
3. “Trust Fund”
Are they shariah compliant by not owning what they sell? The risk is all at the customers’ doorstep.
4. Malaysians “cepat lupa”
Remember
* The grandfather’s Park-In scheme?
* The lucky draw?
* The China trip and other incentive for performers?
If they cannot perform on such small matters, can you expect them to perform when the crunch comes.
Bye bye, my sunshine holidays with my family is more important? You die, that is your business as the Chinese saying goes. Who ask you to be greedy?
Pat Lu says:
November 5, 2011 at 11:25 am (UTC 8)
Hi William, thanks for visiting my blog.
I took down my personal blog, My Gold Goose, simply because of unintentional MISPERCEPTIONS caused; namely:
1. Mistaken as the official website of Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd.
That’s the best compliment-ever for a small time blogger, thank you very much!
2. Gave the impression the company has only 50-odd consultants nationwide. The listing is only shows my teammates and contact numbers. :p
FYI, GENNEVA has more than 2,800 consultants (and growing) nationwide, not including those in Singapore, The Philippines and China.
Be rest assured Mothership Genneva Malaysia is very much afloat and sailing on course. Please visit GENNEVA official website — genneva-world.com
Pat Lu (012) 210 4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
JohnD says:
November 5, 2011 at 9:48 pm (UTC 8)
I am looking at a neutral point.
One thing I noticed is that Pat Lu dared to leave his mobile number.
While the rest kept bombarding without leaving his/her contact number.
What is your take about this? Something to ponder…
KLbull says:
November 6, 2011 at 6:22 pm (UTC 8)
I believe Pat Lu is a she and as a Senior Consultant with Genneva, actively promotes herself as the “Gold Goose’ to get new clients, as that is how she makes a living. You can’t earn commissions by being anonymous to prospective clients. Why don’t you contact her, maybe even put a little money in the scheme?
Lee Mei May says:
November 6, 2011 at 6:38 pm (UTC 8)
Dear JohnD,
Pat Lu doesn’t only leaves his mobile number but at one time even his goldgoose website for those interested to become his customers/consultants.
Everybody knows the mobile numbers of the Directors and Senior Managers of TGL, but when they don’t need you they will just ignore your call. All the directors’ addresses are with SSM. Does it give any satisfaction to the customers of TGL, TigNet or the whole host of collapsed empires.
Please look for substance.
Is a company whose only income is from the customers paying for the gold and paying hibah to customers and commission to consultant sustainable?
Are the claims made by Pat Lu that buying gold from the goldco protect the buyer from inflation, etc etc. Why don’t we wait for Pat Lu to respond to my comments on his 10 points.
Is Pat Lu’s earlier assertion that the goldco make money by hedging on gold and buying low from wholesalers true. If so, why do they have to buy at a premium from banks like RHB and have to have a trust fund and not deliver gold to customers upon full payment?
If the goldco has a manufacturing plant as claimed by Pat Lu, where they make profit from gold refining, why is it not mentioned in their submission to SSM?
Since Pat Lu has given his mobile number, be my guest, please call him and see if you can get the truthful answers to the above points.
Pat Lu says:
November 7, 2011 at 3:26 am (UTC 8)
Hi LMM,
All your questions and assumptions are IRRELEVANT.
The long and short of it…
1. No company shares their trade secrets with the public unless they are suicidal.
2. All the challenges Genneva faced in the past is water under the bridge. Genneva is still around while the old copy-cats are gone within a year. As for the new copy-cats in town, lets see how long they’ll last. All the best to them.
3. You are holding physical gold. No matter what happens to the company Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd, you are HOLDING PHYSICAL GOLD. So what’s there to worry?
4. Whether you buy physical gold from Genneva or other sources at whatever price; similar to an insurance policy, you don’t cash the gold іn unlеsѕ уоu absolutely nеed it… as our Grand-Parents taught us, including Uncles and Aunties.
Cheers and have a blessed GOLDEN day!
Pat Lu (012) 210 4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
Pat Lu says:
November 7, 2011 at 3:52 am (UTC 8)
Oh, I forgot to add after my signature, my newly inspired tagline …
@Work with The World’s Most Innovative Gold Industry Leader
Where I buy physical gold and be rewarded with discretionary monthly Hibah.
Pat Lu says:
November 7, 2011 at 2:18 am (UTC 8)
Sharp observation, JohnD
Click my name in blue above to view my Facebook. Hey, I don’t know about the rest but I’m real.
Everyone should ask LMM to show herself and to provide her phone number. Otherwise, she/he has lost all credibility
All are welcomed to add me on FB or call me for any clarification on Genneva Gold anytime.
Cheers and have a blessed GOLDEN day,
Pat Lu (012) 210 4898
Senior Consultant, Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd
William says:
November 5, 2011 at 11:59 am (UTC 8)
Sounds like a good cover-line which most people might buy if they were to think ‘semi-rationally/logically’
So far you are unable to answer the four points mentione