Genneva Gold

GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html

Congrats! Genneva is listed as the latest scam!

Seriously, I did not even know anything about their 4 tiers overriding commission scheme. This is a deadly giveaway:

Quote:

“Those without money to invest can join in as sales person with 4 tiers overriding commission of up to 1%. My friend asked me to burrow money from my insurance policy to invest in Genneva gold after I told him I have no money to invest. He quitted after one week citing non transparency of the company as a reason.”

Btw, I am NOT a competitor of Genneva. I am a gold futures trader for a hedge fund. We are not even allowed to take in any clients with less than $1m networth.

goldclubasia.com is just my pet project over the last 2 years to give retail gold bullion investors some free educational material and a platform to sell/buy bullion from each other without middlemen. I have never earned a single cent from that website.

If I want to compete with Genneva, all I need to do is to set up a shell company and offer 2.1%/month return. Probably with 3 months all their victims would switch over to my ponzi scheme. hahaha…..

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Opportunist says 14 years ago

Hello all,

Wow its getting hot in here ..
Thought I should share some of the facts I’ve gathered.

To GoldClubAsia,

“They are buying gold bullion from UOB then sell it at huge premium to customers. I wonder why their customers do not buy directly from UOB?”

In case you are still in the dark, the reason why investors don’t buy directly with UOB is because UOB does not have a buy back guarantee at the original price. Its a totally different program altogether.

To GoldClubAsia,

“ask yourself the simple question: if Genneva has such a super system to earn 24% per year riskfree, why they have not approached the big investors worldwide? I trade for a hedge fund currently, if you can show us how you make those profits securely, we can pump in $50m in your scheme next week.”

Well if you were to look outside the box at the bigger picture, investors like myself feels even more secure to know that Genneva has in fact rejected not one but many corporations and big investors. To me this means that Genneva is operating a proper business and they have the majority investors interest at heart because :

1. Genneva could have just accepted a $50m account, sell the gold that was bought at wholesale (>20% off retail) and dissappear the next day giving them a cool tidy profit of at least $10m. Not bad for a days work !
2. Genneva could have accepted a $50m account, buy 900kg worth of gold and deliver it. One month later when the Buy Back Guarantee begins, buy another 900kg worth of gold to exchange with same investor. Come the 3rd month when Buy Back Guarantee begins again, investor decides to stop the program. Tell me what happens to Genneva ? They’ll be stuck with almost 2 tonnes of gold. Do I need to explain further ?

In business, its all about supply and demand. As a businessman, GoldClubAsia would you stock up tonnes of supply when you only have a fraction of that demand ?

As for me, I’m the adventurous kind of investor, an opportunity seeker, I take risk, calculated ones of course. I did ask myself these questions :
– Is the Genneva program really a ponzi scheme ?
– Is Genneva’s business model sustainable for the long term ?
– What if tomorrow Genneva fly by night ?
Honestly, no one can predict. All I know is that i have the appetite for a 20% risk of lousing my capital but I know that over time, my risk will diminish.

Finally I just want to add that this Genneva program is :

NOT FOR EVERYONE !!!

For those that have been hesitating for like more than 2 weeks, let me help you decide !
MOVE ON !!! FORGET GENNEVA !!!
You do not possess such an appetite.

– Opportunist

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

I fully expected Genneva scheme supporters to attack me on personal level. As people here mentioned before, when facts run out, discredit the naysayers is the easy way to distract from the focus points.

Fact 1: Genneva is in the business of selling a promise to return 2%/month to investors

Fact 2: This promise is paid in cash in advance by investors in form of a special premium over the bullion they buy

Fact 3: The gold changing hand here is irrelevant to fact 1 & 2, it can be replaced with any other items. In fact, diamond or platinum would be more suitable for such a scheme since it is far more compact.

Fact 4: OSGold scheme is identical to Genneva scheme except in one point: 100% of investor’s money was targeted by OSgold, Genneva only target 20% of their victim’s money.

Fact 5: The REAL promised return to investors by Genneva is NOT 2%/month, it is 10%/month. How did I get this number?

Since the investor will hold their own bullion, there is only the premium available to Genneva as cash pool to pay out their promise. The return promised is however on the entire investment size including the portion for bullion.

2(promised return on gold):20(premium over retail gold bullion) = 10% REAL return PER month on your capital at risk

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

a few links:

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Genneva%E2%80%99s-gold-scheme-draws-brickbats–bouquets-19580-3-1.html

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/15/starprobe/4317875&sec=starprobe

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?p=37530140

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

can we stop all the personal attacks and flaming?

i can summarise all above posts into 3 points:

1. Gold sold by Genneva is real, but at an inflated price.

2. Investor can only make profit as long as Genneva honours its promise to buy back the gold at a guaranteed price.

3. Investor can only fall back on their gold holding (which will probably be worth much less than their purchase price unless gold appreciates greatly) if Genneva folds.

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andrew says 14 years ago

“NEW YORK (Reuters) – A man accused of running a multimillion-dollar Ponzi scheme in which investors were told their deposits were backed by offshore gold bullion reserves was arrested on Tuesday, nearly seven years after his operation shut down and he moved to Mexico, authorities said.”

Is there any similarity with Genneva apart from the word ‘Gold’?…..GoldClubAsia?

Why are you trying to mislead investors like us with this kind of news? Pls compare Apple for Apple, la!

Whatever business you are in and if you are in these forum to tell us 101 things negative about Genneva and 101 good thing good about your Business…..I only know 1 thing….You are a lousy marketeer and not a very professional businessman.

Go and find out how the biz is done at their office direct and then give us clearer comment.

(If you are so free ‘bad mouthing’ other people business here)
Maybe you should be able to make more money selling yourself elsewhere. (Here, you are losing points for every comment you make.)

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Here is an link about another gold bullion ponzi scheme: OSgold

66000 clients, not bad at all.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE51N60K20090224

I believe Genneva is still in its early stage of development. Due to the fact that they only run ponzi on a relatively small percentage of client’s money, it will take good 1 -2 years until it really busts.

Right now, it is more a High Yielding Investment Program than a classical ponzi, where ALL of the client’s money goes to pay the previous investors.

Very well constructed, indeed. Exit for their founders already built in the system. I am impressed!

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Let’s cut Genneva’s business model into smaller portion and try to look through the curtain:

Highly visible and advertised: selling genuine gold bullion

Less visible: attach a ponzi scheme to the gold and claim your potential losses will be covered by the gains you make with holding on to gold bullion.

The gold bullion you buy from Genneva IS backed by gold itself. No question about that.

The promised buyback and 2%/month payment AFTER the gold purchase is NOT backed the gold bullion you buy from them.

The beauty of this scheme is that since it is on willing buyer willing seller basis, the future victims will have a very very hard time to get a tangible claim on their loss due to a failure of the counter party. This is due to the way how they invoice their customers. On the invoice there is only one price, the overinflated price for gold bullion. Since you will be holding on to the gold, therefore you will never be able to prove that you have suffered any damages from the other promises by the company.

I have to say that this is one of the best constructed Ponzi since long time. Hat off to their starters!

Please stop hiding the ponzi behind gold. It has always been set up to prey on novice gold investors.

The premium that you are paying for their gold bullion is supposed to be used for their back office gold dealing to generate profit. This is one of the hallmarks for Ponzis: we know a secret to make money fast, but we can’t share the details with you due to our proprietary trading system.

I have a simple suggestion for all their future customers:

1) start organizing yourself now, get each others contacts. When Genneva folds, at least your voice will be heard by the media/mas/cad

2) ask Genneva to list your 2% monthly cashflow as a seperate item on your invoice, not just as footnote as conditions. When the crunch time comes, all your current invoices will show is that you have willingly bought gold bullion at overinflated prices in full agreement.

3) last but not least, ask yourself the simple question: if Genneva has such a super system to earn 24% per year riskfree, why they have not approached the big investors worldwide? I trade for a hedge fund currently, if you can show us how you make those profits securely, we can pump in $50m in your scheme next week.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

To make the matter even simpler:

Business model “Cash Machine” or “CM”

1.Customer gives $1200 to “CM”

2.Customer gets $1000 back from “CM” immediately

3.Now, from here onwards, customer gets $20 back from “CM” every month.

outcome a: If “CM” pays out more than 10 months, customer win

outcome b: If “CM” folds before 10th payment is due, customer lose

The simple trick is: the first $1000 is never at risk, it has always been and will always be about the other $200.

This is the simple working behind Genneva or any other “smart ponzi”

It can last longer than 10 months as Madoff has proven it to the world.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Just finished reading the latest Genneva related article on thestar online, here my 2cents:

True: they sell REAL gold bullion to their customers

NOT true: they sell bullion @ DISCOUNT to their customers

Their price benchmark for bullion is the one that is meant for gold jewelry, NOT bullion. Those are two totally different products. One is for end user consumption, that price includes the workmanship for the gold ring/bracelet etc….

It’s like I would start selling CRUDE OIL to you at the price of gasoline.

Here are some guide lines for gold bullion:

1 Oz gold bullion 9999 selling for 3.7% above spot

100 gram gold bars 9999 selling for 2.5% above spot

1 KG gold bars 9999 selling for 0.5% above spot

Those are numbers for RETAIL investors, wholesale gets discount.

In Singapore, you have to add 7% GST on top of the numbers above.

The best place to buy bullion in SG is at UOB plaza.

The best place to sell bullion in SG is via GoldClubAsia.com (it’s all free & P2P, like Ebay but with more privacy)

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Today I asked a friend to check out their office for me, here are some first impressions:

1) Their business registered address is in a private condo unit @ East Coast, not Orchard Road. You can check this by doing a search on ACRA website for free.

2) Their registered business activity is NOT in gold trading, its fee based consultancy.

3) They are selling gold bullion at 22% above spot. All on willing buyer, willing seller basis. If they fold, you will have NO CHANCE of claiming back any kind of money from them.

4) Their buy back guarantee comes with many conditions attached, which can deem it impossible to honor. For example: only 1 week time to sellback to them after 4 weeks of holding, only when their physical office is open, only with advanced notice, etc……

5) They claim to have $500k paid up capital, which is barely enough to buy back 10 kilos of gold bullion. Normally, paid up capital of a PTE LTD is meaningless because most of the time it is NOT CASH.

6) They are buying gold bullion from UOB then sell it at huge premium to customers. I wonder why their customers do not buy directly from UOB?

7) No ideas what their agents earn from promoting such a scheme, must be close to what OilPods people earned in the past. (another smart scam)

8) Best of all: they claim to make 35% per MONTH with gold related business in Malaysia to pay you 2% per month as profit sharing. This number alone should sound alarm bell like crazy.

My own conclusion is obvious: Genneva is making a killing profit with innocent gold bullion investors. It’s just matter of time until they fold in SG. It is mathematically impossible for their scheme to work in the longterm.

Normally, smart scamers know their limits and will make lots of cash fast, then fold and disappear. I believe this one is no different. Better still, Genneva might even get away with their scheme in SG because they NEVER explicitly selling their product as an investment.

I don’t plan to hold you back from investing in their promises, just remember it is all you are paying for when paying such a premium above normal bullion price: A promise backed by nothing.

To all Genneva agents: feel free to sell your car, property and borrow money from banks, then invest with Genneva scheme. If you are fast & nimble, you might even be able to turn a profit before their door shuts.

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andrew says 14 years ago

Some negative article appeared in The Star newpaper that day and so much negative talk going on. Today (15th July), actual explaination(and YES, good news) and suddenly no more sound.

Well, to those who still insist on ‘bad mouth’ about other peoples business, find some other place again and good luck.

Wondering again, what is the motive behind all this(bad mouth thing)? BTW, there’s always 2 sides to a coin. Depends on which side you are looking at.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

to the Genneva agents, i post another simple question.

why would Genneva be afraid of government/regulatory scrutiny if their business model is indeed as simple and profitable as you mentioned? No risk right? Nothing illegal right?

if the regulators inspect and pass this company, WOW, you will get tons more of investors. I PERSONALLY WILL BORROW AS MUCH AS I CAN FROM MY BANKS TO INVEST.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

let me just highlight some statistics of real banks for the sake of all.

1. Genuine banks usually maintain a Tier 1 Capital Adequacy Ratio (“CAR”) of about 10% and Total CAR of 14%. They are required by Singapore law to maintain 6% Tier 1 and 10% Total CAR.

2. The Return on Assets (how much net income earned for each dollar of asset owned) is at best 2%, not the 10s of % mentioned by someone above. So for every dollar of asset each bank holds, they earn like 2 cents ONLY. Suddenly, Genneva seems so wonderful!

3. The Return on Equity (how much net income earned for each dollar of shareholder funds) is about 13% in a good year! This means the shareholders that subject themselves to RISK of the share price moving up and down ‘earn’ about 13 cents for every $1 share price. They do not get paid the 13 cents dividend in full though. Some get retained in the company. Suddenly, Genneva seems so wonderful. NO RISK and the investor earns 24% with no price fluctuations!

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wholesaler says 14 years ago

Many thanks to GoldClubAsia for putting up that lovely post. It simply answer all the big questions regarding gold investment and sustainability of such schemes from Genneva.

After reading all the exciting exchange on this topic, I could not help but to share with everyone my own experience in such schemes similar to Genneva.

In 2007, I was “conned” by my friend to set a business similar to Genneva model. I have paid $300K for this expensive lesson but have only evolved to be much better investor now. I shall share from two points of view ie from the company (business) and the investor.

First from the company’s point of view, if the company is run solely on such model, ie selling gold at retail price and refund money back to investor after x number of months with some rebates in between, the company will NEVER be sustainable. Look carefully at this model, it is simply a 100% “creditor” model where assets < liability. In financial terms, the company has no real revenue or cash flow to sustain therefore the 20% premium paid by investor B will be used to pay the refund for the previous investor A. In this aspect, the scheme will be similar to a ponzi arrangement. That’s how I have lost my money and my friend’s company closed down in 7 months.

The model only can work slightly longer if the loan raised by investors is used to finance the working of other business. For eg, in my friend’s case, I was promised that the money raised can be used for a few things such as

a. wholesaling in gold (where margin is very low so you need big volume)
b. retail jewellery (where margin is typically more than 20%)
c. conversion of old gold into 916 or 999 gold ( margin is usually about 20%)

If Genneva ensures good business in the above, then the company will be sustainable. The question is that since it is pte ltd, they will not usually reveal their business operations. Also, such companies are likely to use the money raised to invest into other speculative business which can deliver more than 24% pa, then the model will be sustainable. So this is the company risk that investors have to take.

Let’s talk from the investor’s point of view:

The risk to the investor is actually not 20%. Remember you can roll your gold every 3 months. But you need to surrender the gold for the first contract and then get the gold for the second contract. Assuming their practice of T+1, you run risk for losing all your capital for 4 days out of a year. This is because they take your gold first without paying capital on the spot. If the company is unscrupulous, they can default on payment with you having no collateral on your hand! So the risk of 20% as written in many of the posts above only assume that if the company has the integrity not to take your gold when they are closing down.

In conclusion, always remember high returns = high risk. If you are willing to take part in such schemes, make sure you are FIFO (first-in-first-out). The nightmare comes when you are last out.

I hope my sharing can help you make a informed decision.

cheers
wholesaler

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

It is really interesting the various nicks Genneva gold agents use to get their similar points across. I think by now, anyone with half a brain will know what Genneva Gold really is now.

With regards to my point on the gold bar being ‘fake’, I will apologise since the explanation by goldclubasia has convinced me that it is possible for a ponzi scheme to operate using genuine underlyings, albeit at inflated priced. My stance remains unchanged. The scheme operated by Genneva Gold is unsustainable.

Exposing these schemes is the best way to prevent more investors from being conned, and hopefully prevent existing investors from ploughing in more.

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andrew says 14 years ago

Normally, investors take some risk and try to make a living or maybe some fortune.(Sometime get burned, so what?)

On the other hand there seems to be certain people who don’t invest anything but has plenty of time spreading negative comments on anything they come across.

Due to what they say, they will make efforts to see companies closed and judge these so call schemes(opportunities) as illegal or ‘Ponzi/Scam’).

I wonder what they gain by reporting to authorities about all these opportunities.

Some Companies collapsed not due to their legality but to these so called ‘complaints’ form outsiders who actually wish (or hope) to see investors lose all their monies.

Well, in conclusion I would like to say that if those without any constructive comments, please leave us investors alone. Burn or no burn is our money, not yours.

Go find yourself an opposition party and voice all your unhappiness to whoever is ruling, maybe you can do a better job there, I think.

Good Luck.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

oops.. below part got cut off:

“Jalan Dato’ Onn
50480 Kuala Lumpur
Fax: 03-26987467

UPK can also be contacted at the following telephone numbers:
Tel.: 03-26985708 / 03-26985724 / 03-26985776 / 03-26985785

Please be guided accordingly.

BNMTELELINK
Bank Negara Malaysia
No Tel : 1-300-88-5465
No Faks : 03-21741515
Email : [email protected]“

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

Got a response from Bank Negara:

“With reference to your email dated 13 Jul 2009 on the above.

If the investment scheme clearly offers an investment opportunity by collecting deposits from the public and investors are promised investment returns within a certain period of time, whereby the original investment will be refunded, it maybe contravene Section 25(1) Banking And Financial Institutions Act (BAFIA). This investment activity is against the law and you are investing at your own risk. Please invest only with licensed financial institutions only.

An easy way to identify and verify whether or not a company is licensed by Bank Negara Malaysia, you can refer to the licensed institutions list on our website by following this URL

http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=17&pg=54&ac=57

If the company is NOT LISTED on our list on the website, it simply means that the company is NOT LICENSED NOR APPROVED by Bank Negara Malaysia to offer any financial services or products.

You may also cross check with Securities Commission’s (SC) licensed/alert lists on their website :

1. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/licenseMain.html

2. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/investors/Alert_list.html

3. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/investors/IApg_other.html

Nevertheless, your e-mail has been forwarded to our Unit Penyiasatan Khas (UPK). If you have more information pertaining to this company or other illegal deposit taking activities or illegal foreign currency dealings or are a victim of such activities or scams you can send details of such information or complaint together with the documents to Bank Negara Malaysia as follows:

Unit Penyiasatan Khas
Bank Negara Malaysia”

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

One more thing: any ponzi schemes can be easily detected by replacing their main product with another product and yet still functional.

example: I start a new company called “global rice trading”

I am selling highest grade rice for 20% above market value to you.

You will receive 2% per month from me later.

Price of rice does move, so you can choose to keep/eat the rice or sell the rice at a profit on open market or sell back to me later at guaranteed price.

You get to keep the rice. If I go bust, you just lose the “premium” of 20%. No big deal.

If anyone wants to invest in my new “venture”, just leave a message.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Hi, I am a private gold futures trader trading on COMEX. I am also keeping up a gold investor forum on GoldClubAsia.com

We had some club meet ups last year in SG and there was once a Genneva agent there as well. He tried to get me to invest in their scheme too.

My impression from the beginning was that this is PROBABLY a ponzi. On my website last year I have warned people that there will be more and more ponzis coming out of woodwork due to the generational bull market we are in.

The best way to invest in gold is to buy real gold bullion at the closest possible to spot price. This scheme offered by Genneva is nothing more than a ponzi using gold bullion as frontage.

For those who are not familiar with global gold bullion trading: it is probably one of the lowest margin business you can run. If you do not have volume, you will not make money.

This scheme has never been about gold, but more about the “premium” they are asking you to pay above the usual gold bullion price. Like all other ponzis, they take money upfront, then pay you your own money back over time. Meanwhile, trying to recruit more “customers”.

Please study ponzis on wiki, even the oldest scheme, was based on some kind of magical way to make profit off international postage stamps.

It is never about the gold you are buying, it is after the “premium” you are paying.

I expect fully that any Genneva agents will be attacking me immediately regarding this post. Please be aware that I am not online often, it might take time to respond to your posts.

24% per year return on gold riskfree is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. PERIOD.

When it comes to gold bullion, cut any middlemen. Go buy your coins from a mint or bank counter and stash away those coins.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

let’s hope STAR continues to report the developments for Genneva Gold.

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Voice of Reason says 14 years ago

If Genneva stores the gold for its clients, isn’t that akin to deposit taking activity? And if that is considered deposit taking, and since all deposit-taking activity in Malaysia has to be regulated by Bank Negara for which Genneva does not have a licence to do, then isn’t it conducting an illegal activity?

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

i have done my research before i post this.

I AM 100% SURE schemes that are too good to be true will FAIL. Just a matter of time until it does.

Madoff took 30 years to collapse, but ultimately it did because it was a scheme too good to be true.

Just don’t be the sucker holding on to the bag when it blows up.

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jl says 14 years ago

Voice of Reason – I am not sure about Temasek. But I sure know company as big as HSBC can be smart enought to invest 1b dollars with Madoff. So don’t make a mistake that big companies investing strategies are always right. Inside such corporations are just another high paying employee “trying” to do the right thing.

Intheknow – Aluminium will weight much less than Gold as it’s density is lower. Cooper is closer. FYI, the gold is real. A pawn shop in PJ will take it at about RM10k/100g. Remember it is about 20% below market. Your total risk is 20%. If not wait till Gold price increase.

This would be my last post, as I do not believe in provoking an arguement in which there is absolutely no reason for it. But I suggest that before anyone post anymore comments, please do some research before saying it, else you look really stupid.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

i would love to see your face change when you go to the goldsmith shop and the owner says… sorry we don’t buy aluminum that’s gold plated.

well, that’s provided you actually are an investor and not just the worker ant.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

typical MLM worker ants coming out of the woodwork crying foul.

Step 1 – Shame your nay sayers
Step 2 – Blame your nay sayers

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DeadBecauseOfRumours says 14 years ago

Once upon a time, there was a bank that paid very reasonable returns to its clients. Not the 0.1% p.a interest rate that we are all very familiar about. But over 20% per year. None of its clients complained.

Unfortunately the ones that did complained are the clients of many other companies and banks. And their complaints were very loud and very painful. “It can’t be legit. It is impossible to pay out such rates”. “Also, it is just not right to do that. No other banks are giving out such rates”. “They must be running a ponzi scheme”. On and on, they wailed so as to prove to each other their immense wisdom.

Not contented to strut about among themselves, in short steps they lodged a complaint to the highest authorities. Is the complaint fair and true? Who knows because it really may not matter after all.

Soon the news was out. There was a run on this same very reasonable bank that was paying excellent returns to its clients. Queues formed overnight. After all, which sane client would want to be caught with his pants down when all ‘evil’ banks must fail?

Strong as any bank might have been, it simply cannot withstand the loss of its life-blood when most, if not all, of its clients took out their money.

Smug were all the complainers. They were so wise to predict that the ‘good’ bank is up to no good. It is definitely evil. “Such an evil bank must be shut down to protect the innocents!”, they shouted at the top of their voices.

Never again would any other bank dare to treat customers fairly again.

I am that poor customer that had hopes for better days ahead. But now, I had my pants pulled down by some very smug people.

Thankfully I am in slightly better shape than any other evil bank’s customers.

Through its age-old wisdom the ‘good’ bank, before it kicked the proverbial bucket, gave me some 999.9 certified Pamp gold bars in exchange for my money. And now they are residing in my safe-box. So all is not lost!

Thank you for complaining to the authorities.

You must be feeling real good about yourselves and thank you for listening to my story.

Artist Disclaimer: ‘All resemblences are purely co-incidental and purely for the telling of my story………(bla bla bla)”.

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Voice of Reason says 14 years ago

Why isn’t major funds like Temasek or EPF or even large companies consider putting its money with Genneva. After all it’s guaranteed and safe, isn’t it?

Also, a return of 24% per annum would place Genneva as one of the best investments in the world! So why is it operating from a shop lot instead of a gleaming high storey building? I mean people should be flocking to this company!

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

one more article:

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/13/starprobe/4157531&sec=starprobe

I find it really amazing with modern communications, how come there are still people who will fall prey to such schemes.

The police, internet, newspapers, television, and friends should have made these sort of schemes well known!

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

I have got a reply from Malaysia’s SEC. Still work in progress but I think the STAR article already tells us all who is right and who is wrong.

TRUTH WILL PREVAIL, not pressure or shaming tactics.

“Thank you for your query. We are currently working with Bank Negara on this issue and will advise you when our investigation has an outcome.

You are advised to exercise caution and due diligence before investing in any scheme. Where an investment scheme or service offered involves securities of any kind or dealing in securities or investment advice or fund management related to securities, you are advised to only deal with Companies or Persons licensed and authorized by the SC. The list of Companies and individuals licensed by the SC to carry out investment activities can be found on the SC website at http://www.sc.com.my by clicking Licensed Intermediaries.”

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BIGmama says 14 years ago

I totaly agree with Intheknow that someone should really get their gold tested by a reliable party. Spare cash or not, this is only a prudent step to protect one’s investment. I note that a lot of the posts seem to come from parties who have vested interest in the company. Either that or very naive investors who should take heed of good advices given. Intheknow please keep us updated on the developments of your report to Malaysia’s SEC and Singapore’s MAS. Personally I doubt you will get any reply simply because nobody has actually got “burned” yet.

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AC says 14 years ago

Excerpt from the star, Malaysia “According to a source familiar with such schemes, the gold that was offered to investors was usually lower in value than claimed. He said most goldsmiths would not buy this gold as the purity of the metal was in question.”

Let me rephrase what the Star or his source trying to say, “I bought the gold at retail price but I got less than 100% of gold purity. The goldsmith is not interested to buy the gold because the purity is not 999”.

Which company does the Star refer too? Is it Genneva? Did they got their facts correct?

Was there any police report made against the company after 2.5 years in operation stated that the gold purity is less than 999?

Did the source know that through out 2.5 years many clients send their gold to banks, goldsmith to check the purity? Was there any complaint from the client as the gold coin is actually manufacture for Genneva?

Can I see the gold that the source said the purity of the metal was in question?

Or did the source referring to Genneva or other company selling gold at the premium price, which is higher than banks therefore providing lower “value”? If yes, than all the goldsmiths from the Goldsmith Association should be included in the picture as Genneva retail price is the same as other goldsmith retail price.

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

I called up Genneva today. According to their staff, the CEO will go directly to Bank Negara by today and will sue the newspaper as well.

I think this will benefit us either way … Just see what happens in these few days in the newspaper and then we can make our judgement based on this …

I think one of the reason this issue has been brought up in the local newspaper is because of this forum … Lets wait and see what happens from now on ….

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jl says 14 years ago

As the government around world continue in their quest to pump in trillions of dollars into the economy (money backed by debt disguist as bonds), and continue to spend deficit-ly. What is certain is increase in inflation as our government continue to increase the money supply in the economy. When inflation increase, the price of commodities will increase. Commodities are like gold, silver, oil, nasi lemak, roti canai and etc. Of course there are bumps and spikes in commodity prices each day, but if you look at the long term trend is steadily increase, while the value of money is steadily decreasing. This is not rocket science.

Historically, price of gold has increase steadily since President Nixon took the world of the gold standards in 1971, gold has increased from approximately USD35 to about USD 910++ today. And if you understand how our economy works, so long our government continue to print more money and spend money they do not own, prices of commodities will guarantee to increase.

This is one of the reasons why gold investment is more attractive than FD and it is getting more attractive in the current economy downturn. You can invest in gold by purchasing the physical gold or you can buy some kind of gold trust (public gold). Either way, you are buying gold, hold it, wait for the market to go up, sell and gain profit. This is call capital gain profit.

What I see about Genneva is that, besides offering capital gain profit, the company provides for monthly cashflow profit (2% or 2.5% rebate). I don’t care if the Genneva makes money or lose money, I will get cashflow profit. If Genneva’s loses money and go burst, I will then have capital gain profit. My caveat to you is that, you have to hold the physical gold, do not let Genneva keep your gold. No one knows what will happen to Genneva tomorrow. Even if SC or Bank Negara closes down Genneva the next minutes, what can I say, I will just wait for capital gain profit.

For those who have been investing in gold, you will see immediately benefits. For those who has not been investing in gold or has not been investing at all, you got a lot of homework to do. When come to investing it is all about the numbers. Don’t be emotional, greedy and disregard any opportunity, but study it deeper and see how you can benefit from it?

I come to realize that in this world, even if you are giving out free money, people will still ask, “What is the catch?” So no point arguing, we are both right basing on where we are coming from. Each one of us has different taste and mindset when comes to money.

For those more conservative groups of people, I advise you to invest in FD and see how your government robs it from you overtime.

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Benny says 14 years ago

Anyone here can find out the true..??

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

People be ALERT … !! I think this forum is really working because Genneva actually came up in the STAR newspaper today … (13/7/2009) …

Please check out the STAR page 10 … a short article about Genneva … It says that Genneva is not licensed with Bank Negara … but I don’t know what that means because according to the Genneva’s agent, they don’t need a license in gold trading only for investments …

Anyway, it is good that Genneva is in the light now as lots of investigation will be carried out … Lets wait and see what happens … At least we will have peace of mind …

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Benny says 14 years ago

STAR NEWSPAPER

A golden investment that sounds too good to be true

WHEN times are volatile and the economic cycle erratic, investors often turn to gold as a safe investment.

However, unscrupulous companies have now come up with very attractive ways to market gold in the form of coins or bars.

What makes this type of investment attractive or seem safe is not just the returns but the fact that investors are holding on to gold.

Agents for this type of investment would point out that if or should the company go belly-up, the investors would still have their gold coins or bars in hand.

According to a source familiar with such schemes, the gold that was offered to investors was usually lower in value than claimed. He said most goldsmiths would not buy this gold as the purity of the metal was in question.

He added that this was akin to Ponzi schemes as the earlier investors would have a better deal than the ones who come in later.

Starprobe was alerted to a “gold investment scheme” operated by Genneva Sdn Bhd, which was offering investors 50gm gold coins at RM6,500.

A member of the public said the company would pay investors 2.5% of the price of the gold coin and guarantee to buy back the coin at market value after a minimum holding time of one month.

“Initially investors were paid the 2.5% investment on a monthly basis but now it’s every three months because the company claimed the amount of paperwork generated was a hassle,” she said.

“I was approached by one of their agents who claimed to have sold 3kg worth of coins for RM300,000. This was ‘authenticated’ by various photocopied documents,” she added.

Additionally, the company said the coins could be authenticated by Bank Rakyat and that investors could even pawn the coins to the bank at 65% of the value of the coin.

She also said an agent of the company had sent out an SMS with the message that the company was safe in the wake of the Bank Negara investigation into Bestino Group Bhd, a company dealing in gold bars that was being probed for illegal deposit-taking and issuance of redeemable preference shares.

“A check with the central bank’s website did not reveal any information relating to the company,” she said.

A Bank Negara official however told Starprobe that Genneva was not licensed. He could not comment further as no complaint had been lodged against the company.

Bank Rakyat, when contacted, said it was not aware of the scheme.

“We’ve posted notices at all our branches and Ar-Rahnu X’Change that the bank is not involved,” said a Bank Rakyat official.

When contacted, a Genneva official questioned our reporter’s credentials. The official also considered the complaints as not legitimate because they did not come from their clients.

“You’re fishing in very deep waters,” he said before hanging up.

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Benny says 14 years ago

STAR NEWSPAPER

Get-rich-quick schemes cause RM845m losses

THEY use scantily-clad girls to “persuade” potential investors to make the right “investments”.

Some offer you all the food you can eat so that you will bring in even more customers to their “special outlets”.

And then there are the gold bars and gold coins and promises of huge returns on foreign exchange.

In this Starprobe report, we reveal how Malaysians are being lured into investment schemes that appear on the surface to be lucrative only to find out later that they have been cheated of their life savings.

The number of scams is on the rise, up nearly 27%, according to the authorities.

The Federal Commercial Crimes Division says 17,311 case files were opened last year compared to the year before with financial losses estimated at RM845mil. And despite the economic downturn, this trend is not showing any sign of abating.

Check out our special report as we go undercover at some of these “hotspots”. We also talk to the authorities, lawyers, concerned members of the public as well as those who have been involved in such businesses to get a clearer picture.

It Is True…??

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blursotong says 14 years ago

wah this blog turns up on google first page right below genneva’s own website. Anyway awaiting the reply from MAS. Just thinking if they’ll “play taiji” or not. better be a confirmed YES or NO reply, not those “gray” answers not addressing the question

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

If it is only a matter of time until this scheme gets shut down, it might as well be now. Before more people get sucked into this scheme.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

The two emails I sent to malaysia securities commission and monetary authority of singapore which I copied and pasted to this forum is pending moderation (I think post is too long).

Once lioninvestor vets my post, u guys can see the contents of my emails.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

Hi All,

No need to argue so much.

I have sent 2 separate emails to Malaysian and Singaporean financial regulators.

http://www.sc.com.my/
http://www.mas.gov.sg/

EMAIL TO MALAYSIAN SECURITIES COMMISSION

Dear Malaysia Securities Commission,

I would like to request for an investigation to be conducted on a Malaysian incorporated company – Genneva Sdn Bhd.

Their website can be located at http://www.genneva.com.sg/Home.html.

Their registered office is at:

36th Floor, Menara Maxis
Kuala Lumpur City Centre
50088 Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia
Tel: +603 2615 0188
Fax:+603 2615 008

Their website advertises a guaranteed scheme for gold investors which I find highly unsustainable. I suspect this company to be operating a Ponzi scheme.

Could you please perform an urgent query and investigation into this company and advise your findings? If this company indeed has some problems, please add this company to your Watchlist.

Many thanks,
-censored-

EMAIL TO MONETARY AUTHORITY OF SINGAPORE

Dear Monetary Authority of Singapore,

I would like to request for an investigation to be conducted on a Singapore incorporated company – Genneva Pte Ltd. Their company registration number is 200801594N.

Their website can be located at http://www.genneva.com.sg/Home.html.

Their registered office is at:

400 Orchard Road
#05-27
Orchard Towers
Singapore 238875
Tel: +65 6836 2833
Fax: +65 6836 5636
Email: [email protected]

Their website advertises a guaranteed scheme for gold investors which I find highly unsustainable. I suspect this company to be operating a Ponzi scheme.

Could you please perform an urgent query and investigation into this company and advise your findings? If this company indeed has some problems, please add this company to your Watchlist.

Many thanks,
-censored-

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Singaporean says 14 years ago

There are three kinds of people in the world. The first kind are those who make things happen. Second are those who wait for things to happen and the last are those who do not know what is happening, or happened even after it has happened. Those who make things happen, happen to include people like Madoff, Stanley, Dominic of wine saga fame and many others, including people who make people’s lives better like Mother Theresa, Albert Einstein, LKY etc. Whatever happens just make sure you are not the third group.
And btw Qiyo, if you want to learn how to invest, what makes you think that really successful investors will want to share their knowledge with you when there are many self-professed gurus who will charge you a fee to learn, namely people like Clemen, Adam etc?
Anyone can reveal how many CFPs were involved in the Lehman Collapse? Maybe Qiyo can consult her team of RMs since she has half a million dollar to invest? Passerby as the name suggests is just passing by so why should he or she teach Qiyo how to invest her half million? I don’t have half a million to invest, in fact, if I have half a million I would not want to invest since I am still scratching my head as to why Billionaires like Oei HL would still want to get so much heartache from his investments with his team of high profile RMs when he can be enjoying his life in the epitome of luxury or any other lifestyle he wishes to enjoy. I do not have a CFP or CPA or whatever title but what I did was to have early retirement so I can live my life the way I want it, without a need to fret over heartwrenching things like failed investments which I forsee will continue to rise with the culture we are immersing into now.
Intelligent people are considered intelligent because they are able to observe a pattern and make predictions. Crooks like Madoff and Dominic are also intelligent because they are able to observe the patterns of the population so they fine tune their tactics accordingly. Remember the exclusive clubs, by invitation only, not any Tom, Dick or Harry can participate etc? Steady, continuous and above average yields etc? Up, Up and Up etc? Why, because they are so intelligent that they know and predicted the behaviour of lesser mortals and feed those desires and create desires when they are non-existent by clever advertising and ploys leading to scams and frauds. Do not learn by experience as it may be painful, learn through knowledge which comes from observations, other people’s experiences and noting patterns of behaviours and traits. Simple, isn’t it?

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Singaporean says 14 years ago

Wow, I saw a post earlier attacking singaporeans and saying that they are kiasi and poor. I cannot help but laugh at the stupidity of it all. What I see here is a gang of foreign sharks and barracudas trying to feast on the Singapore pool precisely this can be a feeding frenzy ground because Singaporeans are rich enough. Yet, one of the disappointed minows decided to snap at Singaporeans because he is simply too small and slow to snap at any. I see the valiant efforts of some who warned of the scheme, then they are ridiculed and compared to riding a tricycle. LoL, be careful when you ride on a supercharged motorbike, especially on the Malaysian highway! You may not be around to tell the tricycle story when you finally crash. More Madoff MADeOFF with your money anyone? Only time will tell, but Singaporeans, be warned, don’t run to TKL when your Singapore dream falls apart, like the recent minibond highnote saga. What makes you think you can trust a Malaysian company more than DBS, Hong Leong Finance and the U.S. banks? Simple, isn’t it?

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Passerby says 14 years ago

Plane89 – your reply to InTheKnow is not only rude but smirks of arrogance.

We will have the last laugh when this Genneva Gold Pozi scheme goes belly up and the truth is revealed !!! hahaha…..

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Goodiesg says 14 years ago

Hi Qiyo,

I have participated in the same concept of gold investing (2%/mth) with another local SG company.

Can i know more about the commission structure for agents in Genneva?

For rest of the critics, there is no such investment that guarantees your lossess except this form of investment when you have real physical gold in your bare hands.

Look at lehman brothers, i suppose all of the investors are each given capital protection guarantee letters but what happen to their investment right now?

My take is this;

Even when this company collapse, I am guaranteed a loss of 20%. With this assurance, i can sleep better every night.

How about you?

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Cheated says 14 years ago

My auntie got burnt by this type of investment scheme !
She invested small sums and got her returns all right the 1st and 2nd time. The agent then cajouled her to put in a much larger sum the 3rd time, she believed him and felt confident too as she did get her returns the previous 2 times. So much so that she recommended her best friend to invest too.

Guess what happened later ! The company closed down after several months and she could not find the agent !! He just vanished into thin air ! No returns never mind, she and her friend lost their principal sums too !!

They bait you in by giving you returns initially but leave you high and dry when they get all your money hooked in ! Beware !

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

hi there .. Don’t mean to make it sound like a personal attack. I apologize. Sorry ….

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

The ONLY reason you have NEVER been burnt is because you are too afraid of anything new .. something which is out of your comfort zone … You tend to push every opportunity away without even analyzing the situation …

You only invest in something which is exactly at your level … Well like I said .. there is nothing wrong with that … and that is exactly why there are differences between the poor, middle class and the rich …

I am actually laughing because I can imagine how proud you are when you say that you have never been burnt so far … Its like my nephew telling me that he can ride a bike without falling off … Some might think that it is perfect … but to me it is a risk greater than any ponzi scheme … its why poor people can never be rich … because they are never willing to take risks … U know why my nephew said he has never fell off his bike ? .. because he riding a TRICYCLE !! …

Most of us tends to ride on a tricycle and tell the rest the benefit and advantage of it .. but they themselves will never realise what they are missing … I really pity them for not having a chance to ride something greater because they are so afraid of falling ….

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

i am lucky. i have NEVER been burnt by ponzi schemes or by structured product blowups so far.

WHY? because i know exactly what i am invested in.

Genneva gold, unfortunately, is something i would avoid.

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

I am not an agent for Genneva but I just happened to invest a small portion with them and I checked with a few international gold smith to ensure that what I have is real gold (99.9%)…

I don’t understand why do Genneva go to such extend to disguise a Ponzi Scheme ? … They could done it differently …

Apart from that, one of Genneva’s director is Ng Poh Weng which happened to be the owner of POH KONG (One of the oldest and most reputable gold smith in Msia) .. I think that is trustworthy enough …

I know some of you got burn from some other investment and ponzi scheme etc .. but that doesn’t mean everything else is bad … There are no such thing as safe investment … like I mentioned again and again … CALCULATED RISK ….. that is my basic principle in investing …

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Passerby says 14 years ago

I see those postings by the Genneva agents here touting their ware to innocent investors ! Buyers Beware, all that glitters is not gold …. sound just like the UAG wine investment !
Why risk your money with unknown companies when there are other less risky options to trade in gold.

Lioninvestor – maybe you can write an article on options for gold investment ?

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alice says 14 years ago

i came across this article talking about the gold investment…he stressed that gold is not suitable for buy-and-hold investment strategy, but its volatility should be traded.
http://www.avaresearch.com/article_details-291.html

i also watched a youtube video showing the inflation-adjusted gold price chart, which states that the current price of gold is at peak after inflationary-adjusted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StIPhBHghU0

for those who understand the gold investment business, mind to share your view? i am new to investment and come here to learn.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

hahaha…

UAG and Maxmega just closed shop.

no prizes for guessing which suspicious scheme is next.

what audacity… comparing this with Warren Buffet..

HEY.. doesn’t that sound familar from Mr Sunshine Empire.. “I AM BETTER THAN WARREN BUFFET”.

your theories (typical MLM style) and mocking can only convince non sophisticated investors with insufficient banking and finance background. Anyone who has some financial knowledge will know this scheme is doomed to failure.

one phrase by Cherio which is very true: “As long as people are putting in money everyday which it is so far because of the bullish sentiment of gold, this scheme will survive well.”

Typical workings of a Ponzi scheme.

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alice says 14 years ago

does anyone ever try sell the gold to the jewellery shop? like how much to lose if anything goes wrong with the company.

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cherio says 14 years ago

Hi all,

I just got back from Genneva’ s office in Kuchai Lama with my friend who just redeemed his money and surrendered his gold bullion of 1 kg. He got his monthly payment so far and will only get a cheque tomorrow after verifications.

You know you can earn an extra 2% ie 2%+2.5%=4.5% per month if you chose not to take the gold home but to let them keep it. This is really risk taking to the fullest !

As long as people are putting in money everyday which it is so far because of the bullish sentiment of gold, this scheme will survive well. If gold falls to a say USD700 pe oz, you better get out even if you lose your rebate.

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Din Sarawak says 14 years ago

hi,
i think, reading this, is making me more confident to invest in it. I just called Kelvin and will consult him on this, thanks guys and gals…

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Mickey says 14 years ago

The 100gm and 500gm gold bar is from PAMP Suisse of Switzerland with ASSAY certification and serial numbers. For 1kg bar it is from Argor Suisse also with ASSAY certification and serial numbers.

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

After reading this forum .. I am kinda furious I would say 🙂 .. and I totally understand why some people never get rich .. because they have bad influence around them …

There are negative voices around everyone of us .. but we have a choice whether to follow this voices or evaluate the situation with a clear mindset …

I am not saying that we should jump to conclusion whenever something good came out .. it might be a scam .. it might be a trap … “it might be a shell company” … “it might not be pure gold” … “it might not sustain its business” …. but that might not be 100% bad 🙂 … we all have to learn from experience … thats how we succeed in life … Warren Buffet, Li Ka Shing, Donald Trump etc … they all went through it .. and what if u got burned a little ? .. U will come back stronger than ever …

Guys, god is fair and everyone has an equal chance to succeed in life … so stop whining and judging everything by its cover … lets get practical … analyze the whole situation, calculate the risk involved, make a good judgement, stick to a plan/strategy …. and GO !!

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

are we even sure the company Genneva Gold is an actual operating company and not a SHELL company that is opened for the purpose of operating this scheme?

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

KHLow, for your example to work, you have assumed 3 points which may not be entirely true:

1. Company is able to immediately realise 10% margin on its gold purchase by making products.

2. It only costs 1.5% to buy an at-the-money put option (your link seems to suggest at least 2%, and what about trading costs?.

3. Company is able to buy gold at 3% discount from SPOT PRICE. I am not a physical gold trader, but it sounds weird that a company/gold smith is able to buy at a discount from SPOT, why would the seller sell at a discount from SPOT when the seller can sell in the exchange for the full SPOT price?

Even under your favourable assumptions, the nett margin to company is only 0.4% (5/1200), hardly a sustainable scheme.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

so has the gold been tested and certified by any international body?

i hear what Qiyo is saying about receiving collateral, but the gold bars given to investor are only good if they are certified 24k gold by a recognised body.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

has the gold sold by Genneva been tested? by who?

i still think the scheme is unsustainable even though KHLOW outlined the possible workings of the company.

KHLOW says the company buys a put option on gold and thus is able to stay safe even if gold crashes. The problem is HOW CAN THE COMPANY PAY FOR THE GOLD OPTION. No doubt the company has received a 20% markup from the investor, but ultimately the company still has to pay for the gold option AS WELL as the guaranteed 2% profit (on top of the markup) to the investor.

Maths:
1st Jan (assume gold is $1000 per oz). Company received $1200 from investor and spends $100 to buy a Gold Put Option.

1st Feb (assume gold is $500 per oz). Company pays investor $1224 for gold worth $500). Company received $500 under put option.

NET POSITION = (-1000+1200-100-1224+500+500) = -$124. Company loses $124 which is the cost of the Gold Put Option + 2%.

1st Feb (assume gold is $2000 per oz). Company loses $100 which is the cost of the Gold Put Option.

NET POSTION = -$100.

Company is in a LOSE situation no matter what the price of gold is after a month. Thus, scheme is UNSUSTAINABLE FOR COMPANY!

Don’t add in factors like company is seeking a loan from investor or company is earning more than the ‘interest paid’ from its normal business. Fact is, if this company is as profitable as it seems, it would DEFINITELY be able to secure financing cheaper than the 24% p.a. cost it has to pay for this scheme from BANKS. If BANKS are not lending to this joker, you know why.

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

Hi Everyone,

I am really new to this forum and all but after reading all the comments, whether it is positive or negative, I would like to say a few words myself ….

After much debate of Genneva and their ‘marketing scheme’, it is up to us as an individual to decide what we want in life … the risk that we are willing to take and the desire that we have in ourselves that will determine how far we go ….

I am an great fan of ROBERT KIYOSAKI and his Rich Dad, Poor Dad series … as it show us clearly what are the differences between the rich, the middle class and the poor. After reading almost all his book … I came to realise that the only difference is ATTITUDE …

Sorry for saying but I think “Intheknow” is exactly like “poor dad” in the series .. He is not too bad .. an average Joe which made out the 95% of our population … He has a safe mindset and a “steady” life … which many people would die to have …

On the other hand, “Qiyo” is more like the “rich dad” .. he is ready to accept new changes and challenges and most importantly an open mindset to everything …

I guess average investors uses the traditional way of investing … investing in something “safe” … keep and hold … wait for many many years to get his return … but a great investor will consistenly look for new opportunities and take a huge amount of “calculated risk” …

Well thats all I want to say for now …. both is good …depending on what we desire in life …. 🙂

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

sorry to say, you guys are sounding exactly like timeshare and MLM companies by using ‘examples’ that are hard to verify.

very motivational and persuasive words they may be, but i have seen too many such schemes around to conclude that this is no different.

Prove me wrong. Get yourselves MAS regulated and I will even help you promote your scheme.

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goal_achiever says 14 years ago

Positive Thoughts Sharing:

Most of the time we don’t see the thing that happened as we requested. We get disappointed, frustrated, at last we begin to become doubtful.

The doubtful of the feeling of disappointment.
Recognize that feeling and replace in a good thought like
“I knew it, I knew it … that’s too good to be true, and what if it is true?”
(1) Did I made it like others achieved?
(2) Am I still be the same as I was years back ago?
(3) Haven’t I achieved what I want in this life?

Most of the time we don’t allow ourselves to want what we truly want, and we did not give a chance to let it manifest.
We tend to say it simply “ Oh, this rever gonna make it, that never gonna approved it, I never gonna get that car, house etc.”

Please recharge your thought to everything is possible.

Nothing is impossible, just like we are communicating each other here even none of us ever met. Sounds logic right?

See how this creation amazingly changed the world.

Believe in yourselves then believe in others.

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andrew says 14 years ago

Compare this purchase with what we hv been buying from the goldsmith shop all this years.

You buy 100 gms from shop and return to them next day, you know how much they deduct?

Let’s say you decide to keep the gold bar for a year, how much you can make?

Compare this 2 scenario and give me your comment, thank you.

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KHLOW says 14 years ago

Let’s me give an example of the scheme using company X shares:

Share of company X selling at $1.00.

The organiser of the scheme, say GG, sells company X sells to you at $2.00 promising to buy back at 2.04 a month later.

Using the 2.00, GG buys 2 shares of company x, giving 1 share to you and keeping the other in GG account.

One month later, Company’s shares goes up to $1.20, you would have to redeem at GG the same amount of $2.04.

GG sold the 2 Company X shares at $1.20 each and gets $2.40, after giving you 2.04, GG profits 0.36.

In fact, GG will profit anyhow if company X shares is above $1 a month later. What if Company X shares goes down below $1, say $0.80? GG can hedge this risk by buying a put of Company X at $1.00.

Company X shares cannot be used to add value, except to profit by the price increase. But physical gold can be used within the month to become jewellery, bullion coins etc, which will add value to the physical gold.

Remember, GG did not have to buy the “ingredient” (gold) to make into gold products, its paid by you. After the gold finished product is sold to jewellery company, GG will make profit margin from there. At the end, GG has funds to pay you the meagre 2% interest.

And don;t forget the bulk quantity wholesale price GG gets from Gold traders. and the gold trader status enjoying tax incentives.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

1. both genneva gold and sunshine empire offer guaranteed return schemes that are UNSUSTAINABLE in the medium to long run. The only logical deduction that can be made are the current investors being paid off with inflows from new investors.

2. my investment portfolio is made up of equities, bonds, structured products, and bank deposits. i do not invest via unit trusts.

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KHLOW says 14 years ago

Hi friend,

The financial markets like commodities exchange will offer options or futures for gold. There are many players, related or not related to gold industry that are interested in the price of gold. Some will hold optimistic views while others may have pessimistic opionions on the direction of gold price.

So at a certain price, there will be people who will want to sell a put or call, if the company has to buy gold a month later at say $40, it will be to its interest to “preserve” the price of gold then, so it buys a put. If the price came down to only $30 a month later, the company who has a put is able to sell it to the other party at agreed price of $50. thus the company will not lose money.

Actually, the company is involved in gold production, thus it will need physical gold anyway. Investors with the gold collateral is actually ‘holding” the gold for the company for a month interest free. It is a certainty that the whole lot of gold sold this month will return to the company next month (as the 20% mark up will mean that investors not doing so is buying something 20% more expensive) irrespective of the gold price then (as the gold price will not rise 20% in a month). Thus, if price of gold is higher a month later, the company is buying back the gold at lower price of a month ago.

If the investor paid 20% more for the physical gold, it will mean that for every 4kg of gold the company sells to investors, the company will have 1kg of gold “free” of funding to be sent to factory for processing into finished products. The finished products will yield profit for the company.

Actually, the company needs to trade a certain quantity of gold to enjoy discounts from wholesaling economies of scale. Secondly, in order to enjoys maintain the tax incentive status, have to maintain a certain high trading volume. So the 2 % discount given to investors is covered by the tax and trading structures.

Also, the markup of 20% will mean the investor is acutally funding the company’s gold purchase to produce gold finished products.

In a nutshell, the scheme is actually investor loaning money to company. The gold collateral can only cover part of the amount loan, eg, the gold is worth only 8000 but the investor pay $10,000, the difference of $2000 is actually unsecured loan by the investor. The 2% discount is the interest the company pays for the loan.

It is up to you to consider if the 2% is worth the risk. Of course there are costs involved which eats into the 20% markup. But it looks workable, the company just have to be honest enough and well managed. If not, if anything goes wrong, the company will have millions of kg of gold sold at 20% markup eventually.

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KHLOW says 14 years ago

This is an innovative concept to spur demand for physical gold and at the same time tapping people’s money to invest in gold for profit.

The company sold you 20% above the spot rate for the gold. By guaranteeing to buy back one month later, the company is effectively giving you a “free” put.

What the company will do is to buy a put in the financial market to cover the outstanding gold that was sold by using a small amount from the 20% margin.

One month later, if gold went up (which is unlikely to be more than 20% in a month), you surrender the physical gold back to the company at the guranteed price, but the gold is now worth more the the spot price the company paid one month ago. Thus the company makes a profit.

If gold went up more than 20%, and you sell in open market, the company is also not worse off, as the company has already sold you at 20% profit a month ago!

One month later, if gold came down, the company will exericse the financial put and covered in anyway.

Thus the company will make money whether gold goes up or down and this make the scheme workable!

The only thing is the company goes burst before the 10% return.

My advice is that to minimize the loss, choose only the smaller denomination gold, 100g gold bar is better than 1kg one because 1 kg gold bar should be retailed at lower margin than 100g, but the scheme pays the same price for all.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

qiyo is probably one of the people who started genneva gold.

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David_circuit says 14 years ago

Updates: Commodity News 23/6/2009

“The long term technical & fundamental perspective for gold is still super bullish. The next price targets are the Fibonacci‐Extensions of the correction since March 2008 at 1250$ and 1600$. These should be reached until spring 2010.”

Please read more world news guys. Don’t let the poor people to guide you what to do for your future.

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Mojo says 14 years ago

Yes agreed with Risktaker.

” Qiyo” is a double-headed snake. Trying to pretend that she knew a lot, end up she is just a poor woman with a sharp mouth…haha kakaka…

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risktaker says 14 years ago

What I see here is “SINGAPOREAN” …OMG!!!
This SHIT SING-MAN are all really KIASU!!!
You people are really sick!!!!
The whole scenario:
Did you get involved into Genneva?
Did you invested?
You guys are really sick!!! I don’t see anyone of KIASU-SING here are rich fella.. they are too careful, too believe is hear say answ and at the end of day ….. THEY DID NOTHING.
THEY JUST KNOW HOW TO PIN POINTING INVESTOR’S SENTIMENT!

Ask yourself, are you wealth enough? How much have you invested into gold investment?
I believe 95% of these KIASU-SING can’t even afford to buy a $2,000 gold jewelry for themselves, and they not even wear any precious gold jewelry as they lived until today!!!

BEAR IN MIND “KIASU-SINGA”:
Anytime, anywhere you are in risks.
Fall out of bed and die.
Drive out to work next morning, and hit by a truck.
Retrenched by your employer, anytime.
These are all risks happen around you everyday.
Think again! How much can you get rid from risk everyday???
So Live on your life, You are POOR!!!!! FOREVER YOU ARE POOR!

ASK YOURSELF: What do you gained for you life so far? since you keep worry of losing.

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alice says 14 years ago

buyer aware, the word “guarantee” does not guarantee anything, i urge you read the real story about a recently-busted-scam
http://www.martinlee.sg/wine-a-palatable-investment-by-saeed-shah/#comment-18857

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

going to be another sunshine empire.

nuff said

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passive incomer says 14 years ago

I’ve got an idea. Why don’t one of you report Genneva to the Consumer Affairs Department and let them check the business and perhaps come up with a recommendation. That sure ends a lot of sleepless nights for those who invested in this so called ‘potential of losing 20% of your capital scheme (if it’s genuine otherwise lose all)’.
Kelvin: Can you produce a report from CAD?

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Terence says 14 years ago

Its in the news recently. Bestino Group which has similar gold investment scheme in Malaysia was investigated by Bank Negara and Securities Commission for contravening some financing laws. Will be interesting to see what is outcome.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

i can’t believe there are people still believing in this sort of ‘schemes’. i am not going to expliclitly state that word but you know what kind of ‘scheme’ i am referring to.

if this scheme is true, there is no need for any gold fund managers in this world. everyone can just dump their money into this and earn 20% p.a.

i thought singapore newspapers and crimewatch have already been educating singaporeans about various schemes going on?

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jt says 14 years ago

Joshua Ching’s reply explains it very well.
Quite a good and safe investment considering:
1. Hold physical gold – much better than gold ETF.
a) This is probably the most attractive as gold investment is a means to diversify into an asset that is liquid yet holds value should any paper currency plummet. Gold ETF is traded in US$…
b) You still hold physical gold even if Genneva goes bust.
c) Safer than savings, FD in bank if you buy more than SGD20,000 since only the first $20k is guaranteed in local banks.
d) Safer than any other gold investments such as UOB certificate, gold ETF, with added incentive of 2% rebate monthly for a slight premium.

2. 2% rebate monthly = breakeven in 10 months on premium assuming gold price remains the same on average. Very short time frame to earn profits. Good for those who want to divest savings into gold as well as generate monthly cash income. Significantly higher return than most other investments (ETF, uob gold savings account) where you only gain if gold price increases and still have to pay recurring management fee.

3. If gold price shoots up you can choose to keep the gold and sell on your own.

4. As long as Genneva is around they are also obligated contractually to buy back your gold at the price you paid inclusive premium less should you want out anytime. So if you want to stop investing in Genneva and gold price happens to plummet at the same time, you will still gain 2%.

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Kelvin says 14 years ago

Wow! Never thought that my first comment on this issue would attract so many comments. I left my first comment and ever since never came back to this forum until now.

Hey, if you guys really want to know the real deal, I can be contacted at 012-5110741 or [email protected]

The same comment as my first one: An investment worth investing, which investor will have nothing to lose unless price of gold goes down hill, which will never happen probably in the next 50 years.

I will be making a trip to Singapore in the near future. So please email me should you need to make an appointment to meet up. Or else, I am always available in Kuala Lumpur.

Regards,
Kelvin
Group Marketing Consultant

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joshua ching says 14 years ago

Genneva origin from swizerland,
they got branch at KL about 2~3 years,
and open singapore branch at April 2008 until now.
orchard tower #05-21

i personally go question the manager and ask this and that,
how it operate..etc..
i somehow got faith, so i got invest 500 unit, so far so good,

actually they charge 20% of spot price, not really 15 or 16 %
so if company break down, u will loss 20% (if u sell the gold bar)
so to break even, need to do it for ten months (2% *10 ),
so depend on u whether want to take that risk.

if u need it, then do it, but not blind faith,
should call and goto office to question them until u have confidence,
else sit there and wait for hear say answer will never increase ur confidence.

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passive incomer says 14 years ago

Folks:
Every investment comes with risk. The higher the return the risk will compound. Do not invest in anything unless you plan to lose it all. Just look at the meagre fixed deposit (0.125%/annum) in Singapore. Now… back to risk and reward, e.g buy SGD100,000 of Genneva gold will reap $24,000 per annum (24% per annum). Suppose the company went bust, you’re still holding the physical gold (assuming it’s genuine), you can sell the ingots to retailers minus 20%. That leaves SGD80,000 in your pocket. So what is it gonna be?

You can be an entrepreneur and invest in a retail franchise and go bust; lose the entire $100,000.

Last word of advise, if you don’t plan to lose don’t invest. If you do, be prepared to reap reward or lose it all. Treat it as a business investment not like your life depends on it.

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alice says 14 years ago

hi lion investor,

is there any gold ETF available in singapore stock market? i personally felt that investing in golf ETF (if there is any) will have lower risk since it is regulated by SGX.

thanks,
alice

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jt says 14 years ago

Oh and btw you hold the physical bullion purchased as collateral so that makes it safe and is why I’m investigating this as a viable alternative for gold investment.

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jt says 14 years ago

They sell at 15% above spot for 500gm and 1000gm bars and 16% above spot for 100gm bars.

The premium is then used by Genneva to buy more gold. And at the end of the month you can choose to sell back at 2% gain from the price you bought or keep the physical bullion-which would be profitable if it increases more than 15% in 1 month.

Since that scenario is not likely, most of their clients would keep rolling over and paying 15% premiums while getting payouts of 2% monthly.

Not vested but checking it out.

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sp says 14 years ago

Personalised service will be provided for investment from RM100,000 above only.

We are talking about BIG investment, Big Investment only will create bigger wealth.
Believe me, this is the time now, don’t hesistate, act now!

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sp says 14 years ago

I think investment always come with risk, although this has a very minimum and lower risk, but i still like it so much.
I invested $250,000 equa. to 2kilogram of pure gold, while enjoying holding those gold bars to sleep, every month I am withdrawing $6000/- over ringgit, and this is my most nett income evry month, I started to plan traveling the world each month, as easy as i want.
Guys, think positve please. Reach me I will guide you how to achieve.

The History Leader, Lincoln used to say:
“When you say you can or you can’t, its always your right”
Believing is what you hear, receiving is what you gained.

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bhaas says 14 years ago

I am registered agent with GENNEVA Sdn. Bhd. I want to know why agents not given the username and pass word to access the website. At least I can monitored all my investors status with less paper work for me. This call we are professionals in deealing with investors?

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bhaas says 14 years ago

I just want to know how the Genneve can pay 4% discount every month and how the Genneva GUARANTEE the Golds if the investor dont want to have the Gold with them.

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Jimwhite says 14 years ago

This is a game for those who have extra money , for you to earn the 2 %, some huge amount of MONEY is needed for the start.
Last few day, the gold price is 55 dollar/gram, if you invest 300g,
plus 7% GST( will give back ), Pls calculate…….
Anyway, i had started to enjoy the 2% already…..HA HA HA

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ham says 14 years ago

I am keen to know the question you posted and interest to find more how it works.

Thank you.

ham

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alice says 14 years ago

i would agree with lion investor and Intheknow. This scheme is too good to to be true…

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Chingy says 14 years ago

In Singapore, returns are 2%.
Apparently this is because of requirements imposed by MAS (Monetary Authority of Singapore)

No. 52A-1, Jalan Kuchai Maju 6
Off Jalan Kuchai Lama
58200 Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia

Tel: +603 7980 9993
Fax:+603 7980 3999

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

once again… anything too good to be true usually is.

anybody verified their claim (licensed is spelt wrongly)?

“GENNEVA is registered under the Accounting and
Corporate Regulatory Authority (ACRA)
and licenced by Police Licensing Department”

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Kelvin says 14 years ago

Why avoid? As an investor, does it really matter how Genneva generates the revenue/profit or sustains the payout? Personally, what matters most is Q.3: whether gold received is worth its weight in gold.

This is easy to verify. A simple way is explained here: http://www.blurtit.com/q756113.html

This is not something difficult to find out, therefore making it difficut to fake. There are even electronic tester available nowadays.

Once Q.3 is dealt with, as investor, I would not bother much on Q.1 and Q.2 as long as I receive my return of 2% a month. Even if I don’t get the promised return for whatever possible reason, it will not affect me much. You mentioned earlier, “If the price of gold goes down, he can sell it back to the company. If the price of gold goes up, he can keep the gold and sell it on a secondary market by himself.”

So really, there is nothing much to lose. An investment worth investing.

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jolie says 14 years ago

Hi Lioninvestor,
May I consult you that why gold & oil price are reflected to each other, is it becoz of purchase oil by gold?
Your advise:
Gold-Oil Ratio = Price of Gold (per oz.) / Price of Crude Oil (per barrel)
Where can I find the ratio chart for the past 10 or 20 yrs ago of gold perfomance?

Please advise, thanks 🙂

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chai says 14 years ago

So is the scheme real cos it sounds too good to be true.

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