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Congratulation to GE the smiling customer (and maybe also an agent making tons of money) of Genneva.
First of all, despite Genneva’s guarantee on their website that they will honour all their commitments to their customers, they have used BNM intervention to :
1. Ask their customer to sell their gold to ABC Company for 80% value of their iron clad buy back guaranteed value. The identity of this ABC company would be interesting.
2. For the duration of the BNM intervention, Genneva is not paying the 2.5% rebate with the excuse that their assets are frozen;
3. Genneva and its agents is asking their customers to buy gold from Samudra GV which is partially owned by Genneva and/or its Directors with the 80% value that they receive from surrendering their gold to ABC company. Hence for a customer who had newly invested in Genneva, Genneva had profited 20% from the start and now is hit by a further 20% loss when they liquidate their position.
It is very lucretive for the agents and investors, and therefore please go in with your eyes open. Where else can you get such return on investment. Genneva/Samudra must have the Midas touch to be able to afford such attractive packages. But then again, if you are able to get such high return, why give it away to agents and investors. Maybe it is a charitable organisation.
Anyway, the Samudra GV contract does not have a buy back guarantee and who knows Genneva may not be selling gold after the BNM intervention. A little bird told me that they will only be buying back the gold. Maybe just like Poh Kong et el.
Hi 2%…
The fact that you mention friends and relatives who may be not so educated falling prey into buying gold from Genneva and losing all their hard earn money shows that you don’t even know the value of gold
Let me remind you that the product we are talking here is pure GOLD and not paper, copper, brass, lifestyle packages etc.. Get it?!!!
Let’s forget about Genneva and whatever opportunity they are offering for a moment and just concentrate on their core product ok?
Gold has got an eternal value.. at least 6000 years of history have proven it. Just look at the price of gold today as compare to say 3 months or 10 years ago.. which means it ain’t bad to purchase or own lots of gold over time if only we have the vision and affordability to do so
Gold is the 5th major international currency in the WORLD after the dollar, euros, sterling, yen and not even our sing$ or ringgit come close to it. It can be exchange for cash just about every country or city
Go ask your parents, grand/great great grand parents(if they are still around) if they have ever objected or rejected the prospect of owning gold. Given a choice during war, would they prefer to hold on to cash or gold ? At least now we’ve the knowledge that figuratively speaking, some currencies invariably become bananas after the war.
To you sceptics out there.. if you feel that by making 2 or 2.5% a month from buying and selling gold with Genneva is obscene then I’d say the money you made from other investment is also dirty
Goofy..if the only tool you are holding is a hammer then you will treat everything else like nails. It’s rude and annoying to constantly have you brand others as morons in this blog. Where are your manners? We should just focus and stick to whatever contributions and facts that may benefit others!
Lioninvestor.. I do hope that as a moderator, you should continue to remain unbias and not allow such unpleasant remarks in the forum. Stay on course “your guide to personal finance, investment and trading in Singapore” period
Cheers!
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stop confusing the arguments here. Genneva is not selling any product, it’s selling a ‘scheme’ that looks like and smells like a ponzi.
the issue has never been about the value of gold
the issue is the huge markups that genneva charges over and above what uob sells gold bullion for.
the final issue is the unsustainability of the commissions and rebates paid.
genneva is basically using gold to make investors feel safe, hiding and distracting people from the fact that they are effectively targeting that 20% markup that is needlessly charged.
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100% disagree with B-Plus. Poorly said.
Using the Gold value to justify this scheme is the smokescreen that Genneva may be using. It also serves to wrongly make people feel there is little or no risk.
The risk, as highlighted MANY times in above posts, is the 20% markup.
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U r right! The risk is the 20%. That’s what all of us agree.
If there is no risk, then don’t expect any returns!
ReplyThanks god, this is a Calculated risk (20%). By knowing my risk, then i dont see any problem of putting in money. Other than the 20% mark up, what else you want to highlight? Are you trying to say Mark up of 20% equal to Scam?? haha thats funny
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hi B Plus….
i think u need not talk so much…….why not u and GV advertise in the newspaper and u be the guarantor seems u so confidence with this con-pany GV…..i dont mind invest in GV and split half of my returns to u……….talk is cheap…..
cheers
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I know of someone who bought 2 bullions with IDENTICAL serial numbers. Care to comment?
Replyagents will only mention the positive cases and hide the complains/negative cases. (someone already mentioned above that interest payments are being suspended due to current investigations)
agents will only highlight the places which are selling gold at the same price as genneva to camouflage the fact that gold can be bought much cheaper
sounds weird when agents say i don’t invest in Genneva so i have no right to comment. It’s precisely the fact I know enough and am totally uncomfortable with Genneva that i CHOOSE NOT TO INVEST.
Cheers,
Intheknow
Hi GE………..
who told you no body complain about this Ponzi scheme that GV might be using…
that is a guy interview by chinese newspaper saying that he lose 330,000 in this so call similiar gold trading business and the con-pany close down their business and gave him a few cheque for the amount he invested but all the cheque bounce….
this kind of returns the con-pany gave is definately trying to con people……
u will be smiling…..sure, i think u must be one of the agent, definetly u n GV will be smiling to the bank…..GE if u and GV are so confident that u can give 2% returns every month……why not i challange u to advertise in the newspaper and use ur company and ur assets to pledge as a guarantee towards this return and I dont mind give u 1% return and just take the other 1% only……u dare…………
ReplyGREED. . . . . . . .!
The guy interviewed by the Chinese papers was simply blinded by greed!
From what I understood, the said company offered a higher rebate to the client for not taking custody of the gold.
If he has taken the gold, he could still recover about 280,000 or more.
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Teoh , I dont agree with you saying that Intheknow’s good intention ,preventing people from falling into scam….to me he wrote without being involved in the investment ,only based on his whims and fancies..
what you mentioned about the selling price of the companies and the rebate given are perfectly correct……plus they will buy back and pay you the same price….but the other jewelery company will not do so…So ,where do you want to purchase gold?
Those involved in the scheme are fully aware of the markup price ,(who will see thing at cost?) and we will get back the money they paid if the sell back to them …plus rebate.
With the gold in our hand ,we are willing to take the risk..knowing that no risk ,no gain….which venture has no risk?….why? the meagre income we get from saving in bank..just as simple as that……only those involve only know…others just talk and talk ….for fun
Replystop confusing the argument. this ponzi is all about the 20% markup that genneva makans up front.
venture, investment – pui! who you trying to bluff? genneva is just overcharging you morons for gold bullion.
just go to menara uob and buy over the counter. prices are here http://www1.uob.com.my/webpages/b_treasury_gold.htm
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yes i agreed what u said….but the problems is GV mentioned guarantee…..i will not want to involve in this investment products as it is very similiar like ponzi scheme….
but what if my parents, relatives, brother and sister, friends who are not educated and fall into this and lose all their hard-earn money…
u cannot be so selfish to think about urself only as u know those who invest later will have a much much higher risk……why dont u use ur own assets and be the guarantor for all investor by charging them 1% of the returns, seems u so believed in this con-pany….
ReplyHi guys,
Pls stop arguing. What I can see here is Intheknow is trying avoid more people from falling into SCAM investments.
Btw, can someone explain to me….I am getting more confused now. GV is 20% mark-up and how about other Goldsmith shops??
Thru’ my understanding GV (Samudera) is selling at RM13500 per 100gm and Poh Kong also selling at RM13500 per 100gm. And GV is giving rebate on monthly basis but Poh Kong didn’t give rebate, not even a 1% discount. I need some advise here.
TQ
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You buy gold from goldsmith for cosmetic looks and when you trade in your jewellery for new design you will lose 14% from the current gold price and if exchange for cash that will be 18%.
actual figures vary from gold shop you need to find out .
Genneva will buy back the amount you paid for after a month
if really sway sway company bust you lose only 20% , compared to sunshine empire you got only a piece of worthless contract.
morons, who asked you buy from poh kong?
UOB Malaysia is only selling at RM12375
Go here http://www1.uob.com.my/webpages/b_treasury_gold.htm to find the daily prices. just walk in to UOB KL main branch and buy over the counter.
only an idiot will buy gold bullion from poh kong and pay jewellery prices.
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Note: I am commenting about Genneva Malaysia who is doing the same thing you all are talking about>
Is anyone here is really a victim of the “gold” or all is just blank oppinion. I am not a investor for any of the company but I find it rather funny cos It seem like there is hardly any real victim complaints about this so call “scam” company. Out of curiousity I hv even call the BNM(bank Negara m’sia) hot line to find out more about it (doubfully I think anyone here has done that). They are merely being charge base on “Being suspect of money laundring”, by which they accept cash term when a customer purchase the gold from them. Very weird…people goes to P Kong,T mei H Jewel to buy gold and quite plenty of them are using cash but that is ok and not money laundring..Hmmm i wonder why. Up to today,there are still no charge on them about paying the 2.5% or cheating the customer or even charge as a piramyd scheem.. I hv also find out that there are no Regulation/Law on governing any gold business. Anyone of us can just register a Gold trading Company without any need for approval froM BNM of Security of Commision ect. It is just another SDN BHD company like others. Just hoping that everyone here take a break and give them a break as well. Let BNM do the job and hopefully do it fast as if they are proved to be not gulity, I think I am going to be their smilling customer. thanks guy for all those exiting comment. Cheers.
I was one of the victims in such a scheme in 2007. You can read my earlier post in this blog. Many victims were not known because the companies they deal with are not as “exposed” like GV.
Actually as long as a company is mis-managed and goes into a huge debt (regardless of which trade and industry), the “ponzi” outcome is certain as the money from later investors is always used to pay off the people in the front until there is enough cash flow to turn around.
You are right to say that BNM is not charging GV as a scam and gold trading is a free market to operate. What many of us here are curious here is not about gold, but how on earth can they generate such high returns to sustain the business. This is what people need to be reminded and be aware of.
If you have accessed all the risks carefully and still continue to participate, it’s perfectly fine as you have gone in with your eyes wide open! If anything happens, there is still gold in your hands which is much better many other paper contracts/products.
Replyin the past there are this high investment return company…….they promise high interest return every month also……many people after investing their money and received good return they start to throw in all their saving and even introduce people into it……and the result……the company run away with all the money collected….
so whether sunshine or GV they are just using a product to con-vince people to park money in their company…..cos most people will not fall into the old investment con-pany that give u high return without any products…
so be it gold, health products, oil, diamond or silver this kind of con-pany will run away when they received enough money…..
Replythis is very similiar to the sunshine empire,
think all of u have been blind by the gold….
simple calculation, u use 100,000 to buy gold from GV they give u back (80%) worth of gold = 80,000….exclude the gst 7%……
that mean GV only got 20,000 on hand and with their paid out system to the client 2 to 3%, their hardworking salesman and upline (total of 1 over %) and their operating cost (assuming 1%) so let us assume their total paid put is 5% which means for 100,000 that u invest the company got to generate 5,000 with the 20,000 GV hold………….this mean the actual returns will be 5,000 over 20,000 = 25% per month or 300% per year without compound interest.
so GV is very similiar to ponzi scheme that sunshine is running
Replyi am not comparing the underlying.
i am comparing the unsustainable business model.
how many times must we go through this? the risk of Genneva gold is the 20% markup.
i am not doubting the gold is fake anymore! no one is challenging this point anymore.
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For the Sunshine Empire case, the prosecutor is arguing the case using the fact that the business model is not sustainable based on the amount of rebates being paid out.
They don’t even need to go into the merits of the product sold by them.
If anyone wants to promise astronomical returns to “investors”, one fine day he might very well be asked to explain in court how the returns are achieved.
ReplyI was really confused after reading the case of The Sunshine Empire brought up by Intheknow…. …comparing gold with personal health and beauty product? What a baseless comparison he made…
The gold has real value and has no expiry date like the products he mentioned…..they will become rubbish after the expiry date…
I fully support jazz ‘s comment……
although the cmparing between Sunshine and GV products look different just like comparing apple and orange…..but after all both are also fruits…..
the concept behind this 2 con-pany are the same……
so good returns why dont they advertise in newspaper….they dont even need to give their agents and mananger fees of 1% of the invest amount……once they advertise sure people queue up like buying property in singapore now….where got so good returns, i use my backside to think also know what GV is up to
ReplyDon’t be a smarty-pants and make a pun on the word “con”.
If you think you are sure that Genneva is out to “con”, advertise on the papers and I am sure B+ and myself would be more than willing to share your cost of advertisement!
Replysee any similarities?
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_438397.html
———————————————————————-
THE Sunshine Empire would not have survived for long as its business model was flawed, a district court heard on Monday.
That did not bother the firm’s founder James Phang Wah, former director Jackie Hoo Choon Cheat, and Phang’s wife, as they were merely out to enrich themselves, said the prosecution.
In his opening statement at the trial opening, Deputy Public Prosecutor Aedit Abdullah noted that Sunshine collected more than $180 million through the sale of lifestyle packages that included personal and beauty health care products. Participants were offered generous rebates in excess of the amount they paid.
Some $118 million was spent on these rebates and incentives to push the purchase of more packages, but much of the rest allegedly went into the pockets of the trio.
Phang, 49, is believed to have collected some US$5 million (S$7.05 million) in consultancy fees and allowances between August 2006 and November 2007.
Sunshine also made loans amounting to millions of dollars to affiliated companies.
The prosecution also intends to prove that that Phang instructed Hoo to appoint Phang’s wife Neo Kuon Huay, 46, as group sales director so that she would be entitled to a sales commission. She then received nearly $950,000 between October 2005 and August 2007.
The trio have denied the charges and are being defended by lawyers Subhas Anandan and Noor Mohamed Marican.
The trial continues.
ReplyDoes Sunshine’s “Lifestyle Packages” have an inherent value like that of gold?
If it did, the buyers of these “lifestyle packages” would be able to sell off these packages in the open market and recover between 75%-85% of their purchase price.
The base product is already different!
ReplyHi Jace,
The sale girl at Poh Kong told me they will buy back with 15% deduction. How abt UOB ??? What is their retail price and how much will they deduct when we sell back to them ???? Do they give discount or rebate ??? TQ
Hi Teoh,
UOB’s Gold Prices are published on their website. It include their buy-back prices.
http://www.uob.com.sg/personal/investments/treasury/precious_metals.html
ReplyTQ 4 ur info. Their buy-back price is much lower than the purchased price. But genneva and gold label’s buy-back are based on original purchased price and moreover they are giving rebate on monthly basis. So, which one is better ?? Just like when we buying from goldsmith shops, prices are almost the same but when we sell back we tend to loose some %. Sorry 4 my poor english, I hope u do understand. Some said buying from genneve or gold label are not safe, I am confusing where to invest now ??
Intheknow,
TQ 4 ur precious info as well. U hv ur points to create awareness on SCAM investments. TQ once again. Appreciate.
Teoh, you are welcome!
do make your own decision after reading all the posts.
Cheers,
Intheknow
btw poh kong will deduct -30% of the market price if u want to sell or trade the gold back to them after you have purchased it at the retail price of RM 135 per gram.
ReplyThat should be the same mark up 20% as other retailers like habib jewels etc are selling their gold bullion for. All gold smith in malaysia follow the FGJAM price which is set by the federation which is currently at RM 135 per gram. To get lower u can buy from places like genneva/uob etc.
ReplyDon’t go for long term,it is not safe……!!!!
To recap, Poh Kong is selling at RM13500 (set by Federation of Goldsmith and Jeweller Association of Malaysia) per 100 gram (same price as Genneve’s and The Gold Label’s). So, can anyone tell me how much is Poh Kong mark up ??????
ReplyFaked Gold ???? Check with Assay Office lah…….just need to pay a small token for their service. They will check for you UP-SIDE-DOWN…..Sorry again for my poor english.
ReplyHi guys,
I went to Poh Kong this morning and I saw they are selling 100gram Gold Bar (pure gold 999) at RM13,500. The sales girl told me that there is no discount and the price is fixed at RM13500.
So, if Geneva and Gold Label selling at RM13500 per 100gram with rebate is given every month. Therefore, I don’t see there is any problem to purchase from them.
SCAM ?????? Well, Poh Kong is selling at RM13500 per 100gram without discount or rebate on monthly basis. Clear cut, if you guys claimed to be very educated….then calculate for yourself.
Sorry, I am not so educated as to compare to you guys out there..!! But I rather buy from Geneva or Gold Label because I can enjoy rebate every month. If I would have to buy from other goldsmith shop then I don’t or I can’t get to enjoy rebate on monthly basis….!!!! Think wisely, which is better?????
Moreover, if I sell back to Poh Kong, they will deduct certain percentage….!!!
But if I sell back to Geneva or Gold Label, I will get the same price..!!!! Think again…….!!!!!!
So sorry for my poor english….!!!! I do hope you guys understand….so simple….yet still got people wants to argue..!!
WHY ???? It is fact!!! Don’t believe me ???? Go and check with the Goldsmith near you…..!!! Bye
totally agree with you intheknow.. it’s a fair and honest statement’
be that as it may, whether the outcome turns out positive or negative, the truth will eventually prevail sooner or later
When we go through the previous postings in this blog, some of the prophesies and insinuations have more or less come to past eg. the 2.5% national day offer by Genneva that some claim to be a bank run and the recent prime time news that would have alerted the authorities by now. If they are here to scam, they would have fled and dissapeared by now. Sounds logical?
Oh did someone mention about The Gold Label.. If ever they set foot on our shore with similar biz model like Genneva, then I believe this will surely add on to the credibility of this industry. Who’d in the right frame of mind dare put in money to start this particular biz in light of scrutiny and some not so positive publicity from the media??
Perhaps, it may also come to past…
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Most of the people here are not your regular readers. They came in by Googling. Not a good sign 🙂
Replyit’s good that this forum/blog managed to raise public awareness of Genneva Gold.
if the investigations turn out well, they have free publicity (no need agents go HDB estate paste flyers).
if the investigations turn out negatively, people will know to avoid them.
ReplyJeffrey,
Many thanks for your reply. I just found out that none of the directors of thegoldlabel(TGL) from gold related industry. Because of this i didnt go ahead with them even though the buy back rate was at 85%. I doubt their expertise and experience in gold trading. Thus might not sustain for long.
ReplyDear Rich,
Gold trading companies normally only accepts gold of purity 999.9 and trade with gold bars and coins of certified purity.
As for Gold Label, I do not know if they have any Operation in Singapore.
Reply
Jazz, since you all are talking about chicken rice, where can I can good chicken rice?
ReplyHi. Jonathan,
Gold Label is located at the up market Mid-Valley Mall in Kuala Lumpur and its marketing plan is very similar to that practiced by Genneva prior to the Bank Negara raid. I know very little about their Singapore set-up if there is indeed one.
After the Bank Negara raid on Genneva, some of the top consultants and agencies move to Gold label which accepts their gold holding at 15% discount and pay “investors” 6.0% rebate for for the holding period of three months. In other words, Gold label will accept the Genneva Gold at 85% of the RM135 per gm current price. The agents make 1.3% on the purchase price per transaction.
One of the top combination of agent/consultant of Genneva by the initial of S/J are now in Mid Valley. Incidently, a substantial number of the agents for the gold investment schemes are ex a land banking company who finds it more lucretive that land banking.
Some little bird whispered that a Director of Genneva had been to explain the gold investment model which is used in Singapore to MAS and is on the verge of getting a “special licence” endorsement from MAS. Maybe our smart Singapore brother can check on this claim so as not to miss the boat if this claim is true or dump and run fast enough if this is not true. Good luck.
ReplyHey Jeffrey,
Any idea whether Gold Label had operated in Singapore?
Just wonder do they take any jewelry at a 85% of the current market value too?
My old grandma would like to let go some of her old jewelry and enjoy the 6% rebates.
Replydear lioninvestor/intheknow,
Do you know a company called thegoldlabel ?
http://www.thegoldlabel.com
I have posted in this forum earlier but there is no reply.
I will have to make a quick decision as to whether or not to recoup my losses through a investment program offered by this company.
But, there is nothing much a can get from their agent as well as their website. they re currently actively approaching genneva investors for their program. They appear to be quite credible but then im not too comfortable.
hi Rajandra,
you mentioned “I have a goldsmith friend who has checked my gold and offer to buy it at the rate of 83.5% of the current market price (RM135 or SGD54)”.
Mind to give me the contact of your friend that buy back at 83.5%?
Im in need of money and i need to sell of my gold. the best rate i manage to get at this point of time is only 82% max.
if anyone here in this forum know where to sell gold at better or higher rate please share.
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Guys,
I have to tell you that im one of the investor (“victim”) of this so called gold trade business with Genneva. I invested RM1 Million (SGD400,000).I was enjoying a mind boggling monthly dividend/ interest/ income from this gold trade of RM25,000 (SGD10,000) for the past one year. So I made almost SGD120,000 and I still have the gold with me. As you know, Genneva is currently under BNM investigation, so I never receive any dividend for the last three month. It really affected my monthly budget. But I don’t solely depend on this income so I can still survive. FYI, during the last trading before the BNM investigation (june 2009) Genneva gave me the gold when the market price was RM130 (SGD52), so the total gold in my hand is 7692g. Now as of today (based on http://www.fgjam.org.my/index.asp) the gold price for 999 is RM135 (SGD54). Based on the above figure, I think my gold is worth RM1038,420 (SGD415,368). I have a goldsmith friend who has checked my gold and offer to buy it at the rate of 83.5% of the current market price (RM135 or SGD54). But I don’t have any intention to sell it. I want see whats going to happen to BNM’s outcome on Genneva case. If they ask Genneva to stop the gold trading, I think its fine with me because I have the gold in my hand. Based on the history, gold (and other commodity) price never drop in the long run. I want to keep it as long as I don’t need cash. Hoping that the price will rise from RM135 to RM250 in three years time (hehehe- based on the previous increase from RM75 in 2006 to RM135 in 2009).
BUT I like to warn all the potential investor out there. If you plan to invest you hard earn money and expecting the dividend to be your sole monthly income. Think twice!!!! This is definitely not a good idea. I think one day Genneva in SG will be in trouble like Genneva in Malaysia. This is just my opinion.
Rajandra
Hi Rajandra,
I am really curious on the name which you use, in chinese, but you had your signature in “rajandra” ?
You say you are a victim, but in the middle part of the post, you mentioned that you are enjoying the gold, but at the end of the post, you wish someone or some company will have a consequense and lastly warn others about it . … .
A breakdown,
1. Your name in Chinese but signature in India guy name
(Maybe you are in a mix family)
2. You claimed to be a victim, but feel enjoyed the benefit as mentioned in the middle part.
(Maybe you felt like victim, but happy to have the gold and the company)
3. You think/hope that the company will have same problem
(You feel happy in the middle, why hope the worst at the end?)
4. And lastly, warn others not to invest if this is for the monthly income solely.
(if your monthly income is that high, why aim for others?)
Just curious, and personal point of view.
James aka PasserByGuy
ReplyThat’s why no one should ever hire a little boy to do an adult’s job.
ReplyThis is all too familiar. Shills posting insults and non-replies. The end result is always the same: pushing this thread to the 1st page of Google ranking.
If the shills didn’t post here, this blog post will be out of sight on Google. For $1/hr pay, can’t expect much intellgence.
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Let it be like this, u have extra RM200,000 n don no what to do/invest.
To start a new business? u need to rent a shoplot, renovation,worker hiring, bra bra etc, that already cost u +-RM50,000.00(lost) and u need to take care of the business for everyday and get tire to run the extra business.
Why not go and buy this GOLD today, instant u get 2.5% (RM5,000.00 monthly).
Calculating the risk, if the company run away, u loss only 20% of the gold (RM40,000.00),as long as the gold is in your hand. IN MY TOWN, I GET THE GOLD INSTANLLY AT THE SAME DAY I SETTLE THE PAYMENT,(SETTLE THE PAYMENT BEFORE 2.00PM AND U GET THE GOLD AT 4.00PM)
So, before loosing the RM40,000, and if the company still running, I will get my monthly income of RM5,000.00 untill ……….. I get rich. As rich as I can go around the world every year, buy Camry, Slowly… get a banglow,think in my heart n laugh in my mouth.
COME TO THE LAST PART, PLAY THIS GAME WITH YOUR EXTRA MONEY. The company run away, u only lose 20% of your money, BUT if the business is still running you get 2.5% income every month NOT every year.
ReplyAll I can say is absolute ignorance!!!
What relevance does LV silk ties got to do with Genneva? Your comparison makes no sense at all. Its physical gold we are talking about and not some fashion designer label. I don’t want to waste my time to elaborate further!
Do us a favor guys, put on your thinking cap and try your best to present facts before you submit your comments in this forum and don’t just blah blah blah for the sake of discrediting Genneva
While you THINK it is noble on your part to prevent the public from falling prey into your so call preconceived scam you are in essence trying to rob others a chance to make a living through buying and selling of gold.
To me you guys are harmless coz barking dogs seldom bite. You are welcome to call people derogatory names but seriously it just merely reflect upon your own character. Need I say more?
In retrospect, thousands lost their money through Lehman Bro investments and guess who are the marketing agents. Are there any flaws in the financial industry? Transparency? Morons? I shall leave it to your own judgment and imagination.
People who buy into Genneva’s program are aware of the possible risks exposure and at the same time the prospect of gain over time. My take on this is that if you can’t afford the risk don’t get involve, period! Move on go find something that is of little risk and big gain.. if only there is such a good thing and please share it in the forum. That I’d call that NOBLE!
Replygosh you’re really dense aren’t you? then again, most scammers don’t get pass SPM anyways.
Replythese genneva hacks continue their efforts at misdirection.
Goldsmith shops sell gold jewellery at markup
Genneva tries to sell non-jewellery, bullion coin at Goldsmith prices
UOB KL and SG sells the same bullion coin at 30% less than Genneva
an example:
LV sells a 100% silk designer scarf for $1000
Geneva tries to sell a non-designer 100% silk scarf for $1000
Jusco sells the same non-designer 100% silk scarf for $700
all are same material – 100% silk
only a moron will buy from genneva
As you said morons will buy from genneva so let it be , there are hundreds or maybe thousands of morons still enjoy 2% or 2.5% discount from genneva. cheers
ReplyUOB sells their gold at 30% less than Genneva?
Do you have your facts right?
Genneva is selling the 100g PAMP Gold Bar at $5400 (w/o GST).
Are you saying that UOB (SG) is selling their PAMP Gold Bar at only $3,780 (w/o GST)?
Please check your facts and do not simply pluck figures from the air!
Reply
100gram offered at S$4954.10 INCL 7% GST based on todays pricing. So w/0 GST = S44607.31 versus Genneva S$5400, thats a 21% markup.
https://uniservices1.uobgroup.com/secure/online_rates/gold_and_silver_prices.jsp?&#
Buy from UOB and sell to investors instantly at 21% profit. Savvy!
ReplySomeone needs a calculator! Or a mathematical lesson or two in calculating “percentage”.
$4,954.10 (with 7% GST) is $4,630 (w/0 GST).
Such simple calculations and you can’t even handle!
ReplySorry my mistake. So given that you are mathematically correct, its 16% markup BEFORE factoring all the commission and overrides paid to agents and their uplines which I assume easily adds up to 5% or more?
So do you agree that a ballpark figure of at least 20% or more markup exist?
Goldsmoth sells gold jewelleries. Genneva sells gold bullion. So you can’t compare Genneva’s price with goldsmith price. Its like comparing a raw piece of beef versus a cooked steak at Lawry’s.
ReplyWhy do you add the 5% to the 16% mark-up? Genneva does not charge the customer the commission and overrides paid to agents.
Facts, please check your facts. Goldsmiths do sell gold bullions (besides the gold jewellery you mentioned) and you are not going to get 16% discount from them! Please also check out Teoh’s posting on 01 Oct @ 1.44.
Since they sell the same gold bullion, there is nothing wrong in using them as comparision.
ReplyGenneva pays investors 2%…pays agents commission…pays upline over rides PLUS after making all these payments, they still have to make money right? They ain;t doing this whole excercise for nothing.
So what do you think Genevva as a company is making on each round turn buying and selling and paying everyone? 1%? 2%? 3%? 4%? 5%?……
Where do they get the money pay commission, expenses, rental, salaries, etc etc?
5% is very conservative number I am using already. If you think its just a number I pull from the thin air, than you ought to seriously ask yourself why the directors of Genneva is so kind to give money away for nothing.
ReplyJazz.. I really think this guy don’t know what biz is all about
don’t even understand the meaning of retail price and still think Genneva is an investment company. Is it wrong for goldsmith shop to mark up their gold price?? It would be wrong if Genneva mark up 20% base on retail price instead of spot agree?
So since youthinkyouknow, why don’t you tell us what is fair for Genneva to set their gold price on???
ReplyB Plus,
It’s fine for a goldsmith shop or Genneva to make up their prices by 20% if it’s made known to buyers that they are paying for a service and/or normal business profit.
However, IT IS NOT FINE for Genneva to market themselves as an investment company and promising guaranteed returns when they have marked up the price of the gold.
For example, investment/advisory firms like banks have to declare their commission and markup in all their products.
A fair price for Genneva to set their gold price on would be at most 1-2% above what banks like UOB or KL is selling. If their business model is indeed as viable as they claim, why do they need to markup 20%?
Cheers,
Intheknow
good work!
now you are comparing an investment opportunity with RETAIL SALES..
why not you say your neighbourhood chicken rice sells at a markup of 300% from cost so your gold company should markup 300% as well.
please use appropriate examples and draw parallels.
don’t skirt the issue and throw smokebombs with irrelevant points.
ReplyIf a goldsmith shop which also sells the exact same thing, PAMP Goldbar, is not an appropriate example, I really do not know what is. Perhaps, chicken rice, like you suggested?
Replysorry dude.
to me.. MLM and timeshare are also scams.
and to knitpick my question on buying gold at spot is LAME and shows lack of other arguments.
grow up.. obviously i meant if there is a significant markup in the price of the gold e.g. 20% like Genneva.
Replyto add on to the list. . . .On Cheong, Taka Jewellery, Poh Heng, etc… ….
The next time you walk past a Goldsmith shop, you will notice that they are also selling 999.9 gold with the same “significant markup”.
ReplyIts been awhile since my last posting and the reason being that I kinda felt entertained by a bunch of clowns who really till now don’t have a clue what they are talking about…
Everyone is entitle to their own opinion and that is what makes the world an interesting place to live in…
The same people who are so adamant about Genneva’s credibility and sustainabilty are asking if gold is sold at spot price. Find me a company that operate a biz selling products at cost and i will find you a charitable organisation or should I say the person rsponsible is a complete moron.. In short, just plain IGNORANT
Since most of you are mathematical geniuses and you have proven beyond doubt that it is impossible for Genneva to payout XYZ % to customers, agents and operating costs and still profit from it then you should also ask yourselves is it logical to even consider doing this biz as a ponzi scheme so that they can con or scam? ponzi scheme will not work with this platform.
Sometimes you need to think out of the box.. eg. when MLM started more that 50years ago most people in that era believe it to be a scam but look at how many business today are using this platform and flourishing. Granted, there are also many scam company prolificated as a result of it..
Sorry running late got to go.. to be continued…..
ReplyHi all, i came across another company offering similar scheme as Genneva. I was approached by their agent. It seems to be quite credible. They sell swiss gold with certificate. Anyone know about this company call “thegoldlabel”? please advice.
ReplyDear 2%
Genneva and its agents are deafeningly silent to the investing public. Genneva Singapore has shut down its website for re-construction to serve you, the investing public, better. Genneva Malaysia put the following statement on its website
Quote : The Company wishes to emphasize that it is a genuine company trading in physical gold products and the company pledges to honour all its commitments to the customers: unquote
This statement is contrary to its action in not paying the promised rebates and informing all its investors to sell the gold they are holding to ABC company at 20% discount (80% of the buy back guarantee price). [email protected] who was on the lioninvestor.com/genneva-gold/ does not reply to email. Most probably he had left for another of the mushrooming gold investment companies.
The Malaysian Genneva investors are then asked to buy gold in Samudra GV where Genneva has 49% share and where a prominant bumiputra Datuk is involved. As one of the leading agent said, investors come in willingly knowing the risks involved in investments with such high returns. The question is : Does the investor really know the risks. Samudra GV doesn’t even guarantee buyback.
hi lioninvestor, to prevent more uncles and aunties for putting their money into Genneva and loss their hard earn money. why not u can call the mas to investigate and address this issue about genneva since u r in the financial industry….thanks
ReplyHi 2%,
This has actually been done 2 months back.
http://www.martinlee.sg/genneva-gold/#comment-20132
Replyand our MAS is not taking any action…..from what i know they are still selling very aggressively in singapore, cannot believed this is our first class government…..is it because they are people in MAS involve in Genneva also……
ReplyPlease loh, look at our dear BNM over here. investigate already but still this genneva-samudra gold transfer fiasco is still happening. you think down in singapore super-careful MAS haven’t announce yet can stop this unethical behaviour to happen fast? there are just too many morons and imbeciles falling for this on both sides of the causeway
Reply
IF the Monetory Authority of Singapore does not take action, and if Bank Negara Malaysia consented to their business model across the causeway, who the hell are you morons with your futile debates and super-high sceptism laced with mis-conceptions be bothered anyway?
Have you tried writing to the Securities Commission in Hong Kong, to Greater China, the Phillipines and also to Thailand and see what will be the outcome?
IGNORANCE breed IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY begets STUPIDITY. MORON attracts more MORON with their God knows what!
Why not go for ANALYSIS PARALYSIS where you Analyse, Analyse and Analyse, till you get Paralyzed yet nothing, absolutely nothing good Materialized?
Perhaps you should shut up, take stock of your own understandings & perception and see if there’s anything that is close to being RIGHT with them. My guess is – there are more wrongs than rights.
ReplyWhy you dont advise uncle and aunties not to play stocks, they will loss 100% compare to 20%
Replywhy you dont ask Genneva to public listed their market and show people how they run their biz and their accounts first…..as what other listed company in the stock market do……Genneva cant do that because they are cheating people money……gold is just a product for them to con people
Reply2%, my advice to you is to be more careful with your choice of words.
Blatant accusations may just land you in trouble!
Replystop lumping unrelated issues together! stop using oranges to answer apples!
stocks are of course volatile… can make and lose very fast. people go in with their eyes open.
but genneva is being sold as a guaranteed product when it is only as good as the credit worthiness of itself (which in my opinion is crap).
your comment “Why you dont advise uncle and aunties not to play stocks, they will loss 100% compare to 20%” is skirting the issue that Genneva’s business model is unsustainable and disguising the possible ponzi structure of Genneva.
ReplyCongratulations to dm. Genneva needs people like you to make the world go round and the pyramid to get higher. As long as there are people like dm rushing in, the pyramid is stable. Once the gold rush slows, you still have the gold unless you are unfortunate to be at the roll over period when you hand over your gold and wait for the “new” gold. Good luck.
Replyanyone can tell me is our singapore authorithy going to stop genneva from operating in singapore, i think the 2% is very attractive and since the news had broadcast their operation our relevant authority should take action if it is cheating public money, if not our authority should be blamed if genneva burst is like another lehman brother or mardoff case…..
ReplyI think we cannot blame our authority, its our own will to buy gold from genneva and i dont find that its cheating, i had the gold and got the 2% discount . many years back I invest in bubble tea biz and go bust who to blame the authorty or compettitors.
Replyplease if they are not up for cheating people money, then Genneva should be very happy that they got free advertisement from the press……u run biz before u should know is not easy to give this kind of return every month, is not just 2% plus the overriding of the manager and the commission the agent earn for evey gold they sold and the company operating costs……at least around 5% per month pay out…..they will wind down the company once they collected enough money and the growth of people buying their gold get lesser…..the authorithy got to handle this case cause Genneva is cheating the public money…
Reply
I like to share my thoughts, as I noticed the discussion had dwell on the legitimacy of Genneva’s business in few instances.
I feel though the business may be legal, we need to understand that anything legal is not necessarily morally right.
I have presented my thoughts back in 20th Aug http://www.martinlee.sg/genneva-gold/#comment-23922 , we can’t just decide based on legitimacy nor the promising profits but also whether this is morally right way to earn money!!
It is ok to earn money from the returns from investment, but it is certainly not right to earn money from ponzi scheme because the payout comes from deposits of subsequent investors. The gains are at others people expense and certainly not nett gains from gold trading.
If the information about the fund being transferred to another company is true, then those who gained and managed to transfer their funds successfully has done it at the expense of later investors.
I can understand those who invested would want to recover their money. As long as Genneva says they have the money to buy back, then there is still hope. But if they tell you to continue, please consider before you decide.
ReplyI just hope our efforts to educate the public had helped to prevent curious investors from getting involved with Genneva after reading all the negative posts.
If so, I think the time that we have spent typing the messages is worth it.
Irregardless of what the agents might say about me, I derive no pleasure or joy in seeing the scheme fail. My aim is just to educate the public because I am In-the-Know.
ReplyJonathan needs to be reminded that lioninvest Mr. Martin Lee had start this when he was asked about the scheme call Genneva Gold mainly due to the lack of transparency or the fact that gold is sold by the millions and investors are not comfortable but because of the desire to get rich, people are still going in. The purpose of the posting is to help to stimulate the debate in order to create some transparency. Obviously there are people with vested interest who will work very hard to end the debate in order that “the scheme is given a chance to work”. I have no objection to this but Genneva and Samudra GV and/or its agent will have to be more transparent.
Genneva have already defaulted unofficially (because there is no official announcement) on 2 of its principal undertakings. In fact and deed, investors had been told that they will not be getting the rebate for the period their accounts is frozen by BNM. If they had announced officially that the rebates will be honours upon their accounts being unfrozen, it will be to their credit. Their action through their agent (again there is no official announcement) for investors to cash their gold with ABC company at 80% of the buy back guaranteed price is also against their commitment on the buy back guarantee. The agents are also saying that those who does not cash out at the 20% discount, will have to be at the end of the queue after BNM unfreeze their account even though their period of purchase is over. All we are asking is that Genneva or its agents provide the investors with transparency and official announcement of their action and not play a cloak and dagger game with the investors through their agents who has a vested interest. We want transparency. Full stop. As I have said earlier, to put it crudely, what answer would you get if you had asked the prostitute what is the best entertainment in town.
You re right all the way. Cant think of anything you miss out. Again, very analytical. You know almost everything…
ReplyDear intheknow,
First of all I am not an agent, but I can shed some light on your question.
In June 2009, Genneva held a posh function where the Samudra GV was introduced to the public and among the speakers at the function were various personalities from both Genneva and Samudra GV. For more information a visit to the Registrar of Companies and a search will be revealing.
ReplyWhat are you trying to achieve from this forum? You re quite informed. In fact you know in and out of Genneva plus their latest platform under samudra. Outsider/public especially from Singapore or even Malaysia might not know as much as you. You claimed that you re not an agent. Investor perhaps? You wont get such an update unless you re an agent or investor.
ReplyComing to Jonathan’s comments.
First of all Genneva even though it is a Malaysian born co has a similar operation in Singapore with the only difference being the rebate at 2.0% instead of the 2.5% in Malaysia. That is because Singapore bank interest is so low that 2.0% is like a gift. Anyway, sooner or later there is this possibility of what happened in Malaysia happening in Singapore. So, the buy back guarantee may not be allowed and our friends in Genneva may then decide to separate the buying from the selling and set up a “submarine” company to take over one of the roles similar to what is done in Malaysia. Taliking to the agents or the Directors is like asking a prostitute what is the best entertainment in town. When they are will to unilaterally stop payment of rebate and try to run away from their buy back guarantee what more to say. Wake up man. The stakes are high. See how even Starprobe is silenced.
ReplyAs long Genneva is still doing bussiness and still open ,who cares just go and buy a kilo.
And those who sell back after the news will return next month
and buy gold again.
You re very positive. But sooner or later you will be shot down by commenter here. Better not to post here anymore. People here will not appreciate unless you re on their side (They are Hard-Core-Anti-Genneva) So do spend time doing other things that might benefit you more.
ReplyThank you Jonathan, limintheknow, goofy and Jazz for your input.
I will first provide the input required by Goofy.
Genneva in Malaysia operates the same model as used in Singapore except the rebate returned every month is 2.5% in Malaysia while in Singapore it is 2.0%.
Here goes :
Assuming an investor buys 1 kg (1,000 gm) of gold from Genneva before the Bank Negara (BNM) raid, he pays RM130,000. In return he gets a cheque valued at RM3,250 or 2.5% as rebate and monthly rebate of 2.5% per month for the next 2 months. At the end of the 3 months’ period, the investor has three options :
1. To return the gold to Genneva and get back his full investment of RM130,000 under the buy back guarantee (BBG);
2. To roll over for another period of 3 months and collect rebate of 2.5% per month;
3. To keep the gold
If the investor had started investing in June 2009, he would have collected one rebate cheque for 2.5% of his investment. Bank Negara raided Genneva on 21st July 2009 and no rebate is paid subsequent to the raid as Genneva had unilaterally stopped payment with the excuse that it is not able to conduct its business as its assets are frozen and therefore without income, it does not have the resources to pay.
Subsequently, at the end of August 2009, it was announced that Samudra GV will start business and that the management having considered the appeals of its agents, decided as follows :
1. A company, for convenience to be called ABC Company, will buy back the Genneva gold at 80% of its current value of RM135,000 per kg.
2. Once the gold is “sold” to ABC company, Genneva will be relieved of its Buy Back Guarantee;
3. Samudra GV will issue 800 gm of gold valued at the normal value of RM108,000;
4. Samudra GV will give the investor a rebate of 2.7% and the agent 0.7% or 1.3% depending on whether it is an agent or an agency. Hence, for the one month period, Samudra GV would have make a profit at around 20% which is the figure bandied about with no actual profit margin made known to the investor.
5. The Buy Back Guarantee is no longer given and at the end of the one month period, the investor will sell the gold to ABC company with the “understanding” that it will be at a price at which the gold is purchased.
6. The purchaser can opt to keep the gold or roll over for another month ad infinitum;
7. When Samudra GV have sold gold to the amount of 500 kg or when the Genneva accounts are unfrozen, the investor is allowed to go for double billing. In other words, the investor is allowed to bring his 800 gm of gold bought from Samudra GV and borrow 200 gm to make up the original quantity of 1 kg (1,000 gm) and re-sell this gold to Genneva and get a 2.5% rebate. Therefore, the investor is paid 2.7% rebate by Samudra GV and a further 2.5% by Genneva, totally 4.2% per month and this added to the agent’s commission will come to 5.6% – 6.8% per month. Annualized, the investor is taking out 67.2%- 81.6% per year. Is this sustainable?
Of course the agent’s are all defending the scheme as they stands to gain and their defence is that without the risks where can you get such high gain. Moreover, their stand is that the poor investor came in of their own free will and of their own accord. But because of their vested interest, the agent have never given any transparency and prefer to hide behind the assertion that Genneva have honoured their obligations all these past 2 years.
But has Genneva done so?
Have they paid the promised rebate?
Have they stood by their Buy Back Guarantee?
Therefore, investor beware of the sweet smooth talk of all the agents who does not want to talk facts and figures but would rather hide behind vague promises. They think that if a statement is repeated and echoed a few thousand time, it become a fact.
If the agents or Genneva is so sure that their scheme will work then they should come out and give the correct picture so as to gain the confidence of the investor. Otherwise, BNM should move to stamp out schemes which are not sustainable.
ReplyVery well analyzed. Very well informed. Very updated. Bravo! Guess what, you dont need any input from others any more.
For all Genneva agents here who have read, follow up and contributed in this forum earlier…. is time to stop posting in this forum. Dont waste time here defending your standing that favor genneva because no one will appreciate. The more you defend the longer the tread gonna be. It doesnt help but lead to more confusion.
It will be better of to concentrate on those who know how to appreciate which obviously you cant find any here. Please understand, there are way more people out there deserve your help and sharing compare to people here that you can argue until cow comes home but its nothing more than entertaining them.
BE SMART~!
Replyhey agent… could you advise WHY is Genneva asking clients to transfer to Samudra?
ReplyMy advice: This is Singapore based forum, Singaporean know nothing about the new scheme under Samudra. Talk to the right people because you need the right information to make the right informed decision. Talk to any of Genneva directors for clarification they re not running away and everyday they been talking to numerous number of people like YOU. They are available at Genneva Office at Kuchai Lama. Over here is more about comments, gossips, rumours which will not help you. I strongly believe that those who posted comments here are those without the vested interest in Genneva like YOU. You can continue to check this forum out, but nothing fruitful will be the result. More importantly it will not help you solve your problems. Thats it. Like it or not. Decision is all yours. BE SMART
Replyif things are legit and aboveboard with genneva to begin with, why this need for the cloak and daggers, and why such complicated asset transfers to samudra just to hide fr bnm?
they haven’t done this in singapore yet because our sothern neighbours are smarter and have more serious laws.
now with this new info, why cant local and singapura investors see this for what it is – a bloody con job
Replysunshine was conducted in singapore and they also did the same ‘transfer’ to emmax.
i don’t think it’s the singapore factor… but maybe they have a stronger investor pool in malaysia, so they try to evacuate the bigger portion first?
ReplyObviously by knowing so much about this new structure shows that you are one of the investor who had invested under Genneva Scheme earlier. My advice: Talk to the right people (Agent or Agency that brought you into Genneva, Call up the office or talk to any of Genneva’s directors) and make your decision. This is Singapore base forum, singaporean here know nothing about the scheme and advice might not be appropriate. Based on my understanding, sheme under samudra is an option, you can choose not to join in if you re not comfortable. that is.
ReplyWith the Bank Negara action on Genneva, there is now Samudra GV doing the same business on a slightly different model which is more risky to the investors dispite the promised returns.
The main difference being there is no Guaranteed Buy Back (BBG).
1. So the question arise. Who is going to buy back the gold and at what rate since the gold is being sold with at least a 20% premium.
2. If the investor sells the gold at the prevailing market rate, it is a losing proposition even when he collects the 2.7% rebate and the agent collects either 0.7% or 1.3% depending on whether they are an agent or an agency.
3. If the Genneva investor decides to liquidate their gold holding and invest in Samudra GV, they will immediately lose the BBG from Genneva as they will have no more gold.
4. Genneva promises that they will allow double billing (one lot of gold can go round 2 times) once they re-start operation. Is this confirmed.
5. Genneva is not paying for any discount during the period of BNM investigation. In this case, they should straight away allow investors to cash out based on they buy back guarantee instead of telling the investor to go to Samudra GV and take a hit of 20%.
5. Is it true that in the event BNM investigations are over and the accounts of Genneva is unfrozen, those investors who does not take “advantage” of the Samudra GV offer will be waiting behind those who take the Samudra GV offer, even if their period of investment has ended as claimed by the agents. Can Genneva please confirm.
This is posted with the intention of getting the proper information from Genneva and is in no way meant to disparage either Genneva or Samudra GV. Maybe BNM can clarify.
Can Genneva or Samudra or any of their agents and/or supportors please answer the many questions in my above posting. All the comments only go on the theoretical. Now we have an “Genneva/Samudra Agents'” proposal which give rise to questions on the basic guarantees given by Genneva, we want answers and not theories. Facts and figures, please.
ReplyOMG!
exactly the modus operandus of SUNSHINE EMPIRE… and we all know what happened after this ‘transfer’ to Emmax (not sure about spelling).
are they attempting to move out the assets from the country of investigation into a country where investigations cannot be easily conducted / will be greatly delayed??
can we have the Genneva supporters/agents answer WHY IS GENNEVA DOING THIS?
ReplyDear Friend,
I am interested to know the following from the Genneva management :
1. Will Genneva honour its buy back guarantee (BBG)?
2. Will Genneva pay the discount as contracted during the period it is under investigation? If not, will it then immediately exercise its obligation to buyback?
Genneva has conveniently asked investors to sell the gold traded by Genneva before the BNM investigations, to sell it to a company which they refuse to name, at 80% of the buying price. This scheme is then pushed onto the shoulders of the agents’ club with the excuse that this is to help the investors to recover their losses.
Upon surrendering the gold at 80% of the purchase price, the investor is then encouraged to invest into a Company known as Samudra GV. I leave it to the investing public and the authorities to figure out (if they have not already done so), the relationship between Genneva and Samudra. With thisinvestment, the investor is given 2.7% rebate on the 80%. Assuming this is a new investor,
he would have taken a hit of 20% when he bought the gold from Genneva and now he is taking another 20% hit as he is buying the gold at a level where Samudra is making its marjin. With this purchase there is no buy back guarantee and so Samudra after selling the gold and making its 20% will continue selling gold.
So now comes the next question, who will the investor sell the gold to? How much can he sell the gold at? Does he have to wait for the international market to go up before he can sell the gold at a profit? Is this gold trading model approved by the authorities? This is not a ponzi scheme as with the profit Samudra is making, business will last forever, God willing. Can someone please enlighten me as I am still in the dark as to whether this is an investment scheme or a “milking” scheme? Thank you.
I don’t understand – can you clarify if this is correct:
1: Moron buys gold from Genneva at 120% market rate (purchase price)
2: Moron asked to sell gold to Samudra at 80% purchase price (which works out to 96% of market rate – he loses 4% extra)
What’s the mechanism for ‘investing’ in Samudra and when does the moron get his 2.7% rebate?
Reply
can anyone please update me on the outcome of both the malaysian and singapore authorities investigation into this apparent magical scheme of our swiss sounding magician, genneva?
does a positive outcome mean an endorsement by the respective governments that this is all OK?
ReplyDefamation
499. Whoever, by words either spoken or intended to be read, or by signs, or by visible representations, makes or publishes any imputation concerning any person, intending to harm, or knowing or having reason to believe that such imputation will harm, the reputation of such person, is said, except in the cases hereinafter excepted, to defame that person.
Explanation 1.—… … … …
Explanation 2.—It may amount to defamation to make an imputation concerning a company, or an association or a collection of persons as such.
Punishment for defamation
500. Whoever defames another shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
Reply
poor thing intheknow, many pple laughing all the way to the bank, only you or just the two of u laughing at me……….so silly
ReplyHaha, same old pple, say old theory, i think this goofy must be sick.
Anyway i dont bother to read his subjective comments, i ‘m sure many courageous investors out there already laughing all the way to the bank every mth, goofy still left behind. Pity him
ReplyFull of crap these pple always like to pour cold water on something which they wont dare risk to invest and off course not gaining anything out of it which many of couragous investors has been gaining the 2% for the past 1yr +.
I have been watching from the sideline knowing the what real grievances behind all these, and that is “Jealousy”
Those who complain to the authorities in KL are obviously the banks who are jealous GV is taking away their customers. So far I heard none of GV complain about anything.
And those who cant gain anything out of it maybe because they not enough funds or dare not risk is jealous that GV customers are enjoying all the returns for more than a year by now. The only thing they could do is to mislead the public that GV is conning pple.
So sick these pple.
Those who come to this website to wish to find out more abt the gold bar investment ought to judge for themselves objectively whether is the investment suitable for them or has GV conned anyone that the authorities were after them.
Just look at who are those who are complaining.
ReplyWho you trying to bluff? They started Singapore operations in July 2008. Probably first few customers in Q408. Then you have the waiting period?
It is not jealousy – who would be jealous of undereducated simpletons who believe anything they are told and will go all out to reach into the pockets of the poor?
No, it’s more of concern for those who will be affected by these dastardly schemes. There is enough of them in the world, and these people shouldn’t be enriching themselves through the plight of the morons.
Do yourself a favor and go get an honest, stable job instead of these elaborate MLMs and ponzi schemes. You will feel much better.
I have no hidden agenda. I post here simply because it’s really really fun! Folks like you make the reading really interesting. Like i said in previous posts – it’s like going to the zoo’s monkey enclosure, and watching them primates do stupid but comedic things like licking their arses, swinging away, etc. Pointless, but highly entertaining at times!
Replygolden boy……who r u trying to bluff also…..
if geneva is doing the right things the bank will be their first customer instead of people like u…….gennva wont be so stupid to market their gold with commission pay to people like u also, use ur brain and u know is hard to make that profit to give to their customer…..i think u know better than us……..2% to people buying their gold and at least 1% to their agent and assuming their marketing cost and company operation to be 0.5%….their paid out is 3.5% of the total amount invested and dont forget they give u back the GOLD that is 80% of the amount that one buy from them, so they only left 20% to invest so their acutal return on investment got to be almost 18% monthly…..why got so good…..u and genneva want to bluff who….
ReplyTake a look at this website…http://www.genneva.com.sg/ suggest all of you who are interested go down to their office to learn more. It isn’t difficult to get invited.
The agent’s commission is not indicated there but I understand it is upwards of 1% and it is a monthly recurring one if the same investor continues to roll his “investment” or even increases it. It is an amazingly profitable deal for the agent once he gets an investor, he gets him for life, or as long as Genneva “exists” And trust me, earning 1% on everyone else’s money is a very very attractive incentive for the propagation of this scheme. And tell me, which investor earning 24% pa on his 20% capital (since he has the gold bullion as collateral) would not like to continue? The agent has absolutely no risk and earning five figures a month is relatively common!
Note also the clever way Genneva avoids paying the GST….when you buy something, you pay the GST….when you sell, you charge GST. When you sell to the investor and buy back from him, your GST cancels out. But IRAS is probably quite generous these days. Even the financial regulatory authorities appear close both eyes to this type of fund raising!
Replyhi wonderinvestor. I dun think your analysis on the GST is right. I am also in the gold trading biz and know how GST accounting works.
When GV sells the gold with GST, this GST is paid to IRAS. However, when GV buys back at original price, GV cannot claim the GST because an individual (investor) is not a registered GST body with IRAS. So on the invoice of buying back “old gold” from public, they cannot input the GST there so GV cannot claim back this amount.
That’s why I have been scratching my heads for months on how on earth can GV sustain by buying back at same price and absorb the GST lost in the first place…
Unless they are doing some creative accounting to balance the GST sums… or else their nett return is actually 20-7=13% and yet they can generate 24% pa! But using wonderinvestor’s argument above, then 13+12 (comm)=25% on 20% capital, then maybe the overall rate of return would amount to 125% pa.
By the way, IRAS is not that generous and they are quick to check if you evade any GST and penalty is high!
ReplyThis is most welcome.
Goofy, why not be your helpful self and write to IRAS?
duh, coz they’re over there and i’m over here? besides, i’d much rather spend my time reading all these wonderfully entertaining posts.
ReplyThank you wholesaler….I stand corrected. I had assumed that the GST would net off to zero (when they do a round turn on the gold exchange with the investor) as it would otherwise seem even more difficult to generate a return that would have also covered the additional 7% GST to be absorbed by genneva. Just imagine…….2% to investor, 1% to agent, 7% to IRAS on every gold transaction….that works out to a hefty 10% per month or 120% per year just to cover their distribution cost, not including rental of premises, staff costs, other marketing costs, storage costs, etc. That would really make this a super super super business model if genneva can make any money from such an arrangement of only 20% capital from an investor….too mind boggling to even contemplate! That, my friend, can no longer be classified as magic…it has to be called an ACT of GOD where all things are possible:)
Anyhow, whether or not the GST nets off to zero, the whole scheme still has a very strong odour.
Replytherein lies the problem. genneva and its agents are not targeting the rich, sophisticated or the educated. the way they go about marketing it and judging from the channelnewsasia videos, they are targeting the retirees, the heartlanders and the uneducated – these people entrust their life savings to a bunch of hacks, and they cannot afford to lose it!
wonderinvester, could you share w us exactly how the genneva system works?
ReplyOk all is forgiven, I did make a little dig at his animated bluster but let me be the first to offer my hand if he unclenches his fist:) Anyway for what it’s worth, there is really NO WAY that those kind of 200% per annum returns can be made, consistently, month after month unless it’s magic or it’s magdoff!!!!! yeah yeah yeah, I know it’s spelt without a “g” but you can’t blame a guy for using references of well known magicians, duh.
I am glad that the relevant authorities have been sounded out to investigate this…..heads would roll and I really don’t think the people would forgive them if this ever turns out to be the scam of golden proportions (sorry, couldn’t help myself there) so soon after that last MINIBOND debacle…which pales in comparison to this in terms of promised returns!!!!!!
Just think, if this was not fraudulent, anyone with a house or houses could just mortgage their properties, borrow funds from banks at 3% per annum, and dump all that cash into this scheme and still return a net 24-3=21% pa. Is there any more need to work? I rest my case!!!!
Replywhy does Qiyo want his comments removed?
hmmm…. makes me wonder..
and i thought he was one of the better agents who tried to argue with us.
the rest were just spouting hot air.
ReplyKudos to wonderinvestor to his expose about the recurring commissions agents get.
sheesh – 1% monthly / per renewal
for each kilobar of gold that’s RM120,000
1% is RM1200 per month
not bad! probably works the same way in Singapore too.
no wonder these agents are so obviously vile and desperate to mislead here – huge vested interests.
Do we know if one has to be a customer first before becoming an agent?
This is totally MLM, and smacks of a ponzi. I’ve written in to BNM and MAS to give them a heads up on this information if they haven’t already come across it.
Let’s see how the investigations go – will update
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Certainly agree Intheknow, Qiyo doesnt type this way.. but maybe he is angry about ppl accusing him… like a volcano erupted..
Replyin all fairness.. qiyo, your language is way ruder than wonderinvestor ever was.
wonderinvestor may be sullying the name of Genneva without Genneva being proven as a scam/ponzi yet, but at least he doesn’t indulge in vulgarities.
qiyo, is this really your posting or just some person masquerading with your nickname? doesn’t sound like your usual self.
ReplyHi Intheknow, wonderinvestor and pips,
I apologise for the confusion. That post by Qiyo was actually a few weeks ago during one of the heated exchanges with another person. So the context was totally different.
It certainly wasn’t directed at wonderinvestor.
I didn’t approve that post then, and had accidentally approved it today while I was removing all of Qiyo’s other comments at his request.
That’s why you would have gotten an email notification of that comment. Kindly ignore it. Thank you.
ReplyI attended a session at the genneva office in singapore and asked them some tough questions about their business model that can afford to pay out such an attractive return of upwards of 40% per annum on capital. They replied it was proprietary knowhow……………….and therefore not available to me.
So all I can do is sit back and wonder how such a profitable and seemingly safe business model is not already used widely.
Actually, the return on capital seems even higher than 40% and closer to 200% per annum, which truly boggles the mind….. you would think with returns like that, one could be called stupid to share it with others but genneva can’t possibly be stupid, can they!!!!!
Ok let me explain how I arrived at those numbers….they promise investors a 2% per month (they term it a discount…. not interest, presumably to get around the strict regulations governing money lending) That totals 24% in a year. They pay their agents upwards of an additional 1% per month for the business that is brought in, which is of course very attractive, since this is a recurring 1% as all investors would definitely renew at the end of each month. This adds up to another 12% in a year. Noting that this is on monthly rests, the 24+12 would not just amount to 36% per annum but actually closer to 40% per annum in effective rate. On top of this, the investor gets to hold on to a collateral that is 80% of his capital. In other words, the risk capital is really only 20%. Now to get a 40% per annum on a risk capital of 20% is effectively a 200% return on capital. Now since this is what genneva has to pay out, clearly it does not make good business sense if genneva cannot make more than what it pays out so this then requires that the return on capital must be even higher in order to have a sustainable business model!!!!
So we then have to ask ourselves what magic is this that allows genneva to make this kind of exceptional returns.
I asked but they would not explain their magic formula so I will try to see if I can guess by stating some pertinent facts….
1. genneva can only make profits if it sells its gold bullion at a price higher than their cost. This sale is not to the investors because ALL of them have an option to sell back their gold holdings to genneva at month’s end for exactly the same price they paid for it. So then, who is the ultimate buyer of this gold at a price that allows genneva a profit of more than 40% of the cost of all the gold they sell? Goldsmiths?????
2. perhaps investors outnumber REAL sales and as long as more new investors come in, older investors will always get paid and the cycle will perpetuate with new money paying off old money and new old money continues in the scheme each month. And with the attractive commisions paid to their agents, and the seemingly good return on capital, this becomes the goose that lays the golden eggs for all parties. But we all know that the goose exists only in a fairy tale if no insufficient REAL sales take place to generate the profits.
3. For all those who have gone in so far and received their returns, play safe and quit while you are ahead.
4. For all those thinking of joining, please consider if you would like to be one of the last to have your money exchanged for gold.
5. And for the authorities who are supposed to look out for the common man, do look closely into why GIC and Temasek wouldn’t do better if they invested in genneva and get this “safe” attractive return instead of their foray into the riskier less rewarding world of crappy investment.
6. And to think people actually thought bernie madoff’s 10% per annum on full capital was a good deal and still got screwed! They just didn’t have the magic of genneva which gives a virtual 200% return!!!!!
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Went thru the comments here. (no all, but more than 30)
Well, my view :
IF – the Gold Bullion is genius. Yes indeed, it’s a good return. Cos even the company burst, u still have the Gold Bullion to sell in open mkt. (may lost few % ofcause) So long as u r not the last to enter, should be fine.
But Sorry, if u r the last one to joint.
But again – is it legal? well, got to ask the lawyer , me dun know.
I would like to highlight – Can any one confirm / tested that the Gold Bullion is REAL? Anyone cut it before & tested. I means inside the middle, is it real 999? or something….. filter?
i doult any investor will take the bullion for cutting it into 2 pcs, & test it. Well, for lighter bullion, can be real gold, coz there may be really got somebody will do the cutting.
Hpow about for those HEAVY DUTY bullion? i doult if u invest S$50K for the bullion, and u will cut it to check out!
Furthermore, look like public also can be their agent. coz so many agent willing to shares their investment here. i presume they may have some commision.
Just like MLM, aft u become a member/investor, u too can recomman/intro new investor…. and so on. (i presume many of us now known what is MLM)
Lastly, for those want to get fast $, fast in fast out. Dun be the last to hold the bb.
Thats all.
Thanks.
Yup you said it right ra.v – typical MLM scam!. so would any sane person buy from a Malaysian company filled with hacks that cannot speak or write properly; are so desperate that they paste ads in poor neighbourhoods in Malaysia and Singapore; that promises 24% returns per annum PLUS pay commissions to an upstream of agents?
If anyone is even interested in this, then truly, they are retards
Replygold is bought by 3 types of people
one type buy from bank keep it just like a pet as it wont devalue
2nd type buy it from jewellery shop gold chain,bangles etc to wear in all occasion
3rd type buy it from genneva trade it after one month whats wrong with that . it’s not against the law.
For me i don’t buy and keep, don’t wear jewellery i only like to buy and sell.
You like to buy and sell, can open gold trading account. trade spot gold, trade comex, trade loco london, 24 hours a day. Very liquid, can buy and sell may times, no need to wait for 1 mth or 3 mths.
If you want phyiscal gold, can also buy from UOB, sell it back to them, instantly if you want.
Only difference with all the above avenues for you to trade is that they don’t guarantee you 2% return per month.
Buying and selling gold for a guarantee return of 2% per month is not trading. It is a investment scheme. Whether its legitimate or not remains to be seen.
To many pro-genneva investors, the arguement is that as long as it pays it’s legit and they are happy so why the big fuss with all this investigation and allegations?
But they fail to see beyond the bigger scheme of things. As far as the authorities are concern, they dont care if investors make or lose money in such investments, they are concern with money laundering and financing of terrorism.
Any investment transactions that has no apparent or visible economic purpose will come under suspicion. There are many creative ways to place, layer and finally integrate illicit money into circulation.
I am not implicating anything here just to set the record straight, just airing my opinion on why caution should be excercise when you are given something for nothing in return. Don’t let greed get the better of you.
ReplyYes, its a big conspiracy by the govt to clam down such lucrurative investment program as this will cause a bank run as every man, his dog and hamster will withdraw their life savings to partcipate in this investment and hence will cause a major financial meltdown.
The “big brother dont want the small guys to get rich” will be the next smokescreen by these people in self denial. It’s exactly the same each time a HYIP collapsed when the authorities stepped in.
It so predictable that it isn’t funny anymore.
Replyso which agent is going to call up the gold association officials and enlighten them that 24% p.a. is indeed sustainable?
those gold association officials must be really inexperienced and don’t know their stuff to caution the public!
maybe blast the President of Singapore Jewellery Association as well? how could he not know of such a wonderful and sustainable scheme’s existence?
Replylol, trust me, these genneva agents are gonna write another post skirting the issue, smokescreen again, mislead again – and then probably call the gold association folks as idiot, blah blah. usual modus operandi lah
ReplyThe report opened with a footage of some flyers pasted at HDB lift lobby offering 2% return investing in gold.
Reporter responded to the flyer and went under-cover to investiggate. Footages of people in Genneva office transacting as well as that of a mandarin agent explaining the scheme to the under-cover reporter in a kopi-tiam were shown.
Quick video footages of forum postings (not sure if its this forum) were shown as well, with the word “Ponzi” distinctly flashed.
This is followed by an interview with some gold association officials who caution the public to be wary of investment scheme that sounds too good to be true. It ended with newscaster saying that the company is currently under investigation by the authorities in Malaysia.
This all recapped from my memory so may not be 100% correct so dont hold be liable hor…….
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Is there a news blackout? seems like media coverage at 6:30pm, 8pm, on CNA, and someone else said on channel 8 (10+pm), but no more coverage at 11pm CNA. Don’t see any coverage in ST / Today.
What was mentioned?
The news coverage was on Chnnel 8 and U Channel. I thought it was quite long. Basically, the reporter said that they saw someone pasted a poster at HDB void deck stating that “Buy Gold and get 2% monthly. Pls call XXX”.
So he called XXX and pretended to be a potential customer. XXX met up with him and brought him to the office at Orchard Tower. The reporter saw many other customers doing transactions too and secretly video taped his trip. Later on, he went online to realise that GV is under investigation by BNM in Malaysia. He even mentioned this website which was active in discussion.
Last part was when he interviewed the President of the Singapore Jewellery Association, Charles Ho. He cautioned that the public should be wary of such schemes as he was not sure if 24% would be sustainable in the gold industry.
I feel the news coverage was merely to bring the whole GV scheme into light as aggressive promotion was done in HDB places. The story was objective as there were no comments on the sustainability or legality of the business. I guess the TV just want to highlight such things in the market.
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Pl let us know the news aired in the media. Is it against the Genneva? I want to inest some money in the Genneva. Thanks.
ReplyHi maya..
drop me your email address or mobile number and I’ll be glad to share with you personally
ReplyMissed the news cover too… can’t seem to get any online records of what was covered – can anyone who saw the news cover please summarise and post what was communicated in media?
Replytruth always prevails… no matter how the agents try to cover.
i missed the news cover..
what actually was mentioned?
ReplyWoW!!!! i just saw the news on channel 8.. who leaked out this forum??? hahaha
Replylol. no point attacking me lah, scared of the truth issit? you have bigger problems – i see you just got cracked down by MAS today?
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going to be gone soon. another bank run will start tomorrow. then they start a 3% comm scheme.
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what’s the good news…let’s share with us…as we missed the news at 6.30pm
ReplyHi goofy..
You seem to have a relentless pursuit to bring Genneva down. I am curious about your undying endeavor. Is this a selfless or selfish act of yours? Do you have some unsettled issues with Genneva? What do you wish to achieve at the end of the day? and more importantly what will you do if all your offensive insinuations turn out to be untrue?
“they continue to CON the unsuspecting public” I believe CON in this context means swindle or the equivalent. This statement is so incriminating and defamatory and unless you are absolutely sure, stay away from using such incriminating remarks. You should know what is good for you, need I elaborate?
“If I were you guys I would…..” You are so pathetic! why don’t you be the one to make the arrangements instead of lobbying for others to do your dirty work.. no guts? Its pretty obvious that since you need others to find out more, you are still unsure if this is a scam or not. Why not you be the bold one to take on the challenge and attend the presentation yourself so that maybe by chance this entire revelation may put you out of misery forever. Seriously, I am sure the invitation is open to all including authorities who may also be in the market for opportunities.
Finally.. if all else fail and you are still dissatisfied, I suggest you take it easy, goof off somewhere, play golf, work out in gym, take a trial walk, fly a kite etc… oh..or go to Bangkok, I heard you can choose to wear red or yellow
P/S: no registration fee plus light refreshments what have you got to lose?
Replysigh, leave the poor sods alone and stop targeting morons and their retirement monies lah.
you are right, Genneva connives a business plan that on the surface sells grossly overpriced gold at 20% markups, hiding behind pawnshop listed gold prices as the market rate, when the true market rate is 20% less, and can be bought over the counter at UOB.
They then slowly disburse back this 20% overcharge that morons were more than willing to pay for after being sweet talked and made over promises – what’s more disbursed after a hefty waiting period, making ANY breakeven at best about a year.
This means Genneva sells gold to morons, misleading about true market rate, grabs that 20% overpriced markup, and slowly gives the morons back their own money in the first place after a series of smoke and delay tactics. Only after a year will that 2% kick in – how long this will last is anybody’s guess.
Like any other similar scheme, the first couple of batches of investors will see returns, tell everyone how ‘wonderful’ it is, then more get it – until it reaches a stage where they become a sunshine empire etc.
Channel News Asia has reported negatively. Industry leaders have condemned this. BNM and MAS are investigating them – they might get away on a technicality (please read the previous posts above), but anyone with half a brain will know what they are up to.
So if one had read all the above posts, and STILL wants to buy from Genneva, you are truly and completely not only a moron, but a complete retard. You deserve no sympathy when your money goes up in a poof, just mere laughter that you’ve paid 20% more for something which me and so many others have bought at 20% less than you from UOB.
And for those that continue to beat around the bush, divert attention from the true issues at hand, pose as readers and say ‘how wonderful genneva is’ or ‘tell me more about it’. Please spare a thought for those who you are suckering.
And don’t give me crap about legal threats – it’ll be so fun to see all your books open, see genneva go through the discovery and subpoena process, and all the bad publicity no doubt will sort of leak into the press. You will get a nice little stampede of angry investors on your hands.
Your only saving grace now is that only this forum is speaking about this issue, and very little else. Imagine when more in the press start reporting about this, and every auntie and uncle hears genneva and ptuis.
lol. i wonder who leaked this story to CNA. kudos to you!
Reply1. if nothing is wrong, why is there a need to change?
2. investigation results are not out yet, i would not be so sure they can resume business.
3. using GOLD holding as ‘false’ comfort again. it has been highlighted that the target is the 20% markup.
4. as mentioned, if regulators give their seal of approval, i would invest in Genneva as I am not able to find any investment scheme which can pay me 24% p.a. GUARANTEED.
ReplyHi intheknow..
I spend considerable time reading some of the comments posted in this forum and am totally appalled and disgusted by the naysayers negative remarks about Genneva. Do bear in mind that all constructive comments is fully appreciated
My patience paid off when I read the latest posting from GV mgmt that biz will resume soon
You know what intheknow, it’s so apparent that even after all the investigations and the fact that Genneva is going to be back in biz soon, you still have nothing better to comment. You guys are so positive..Oh I meant positively negative! When opportunity knocks some people inadvertantly object to the noise.. how sad
Though GV is not perfect in every sense of the word, perhaps in departments like system and efficiency but as long as they are running a legit and legal biz, I dont see any reason for people to complain about.
You guys (I guess you all know who I am referring to) have been judge and jury from the very beginning and so cocksure that GV’s modus operandi is that of a scam or ponzi scheme and blatantly made referrences with sunshine empire, madoff, & whatever… feel sorry for you that you are so in the dark. I think those invested in Lehman Brothers would be so glad if they are holding on to pure GOLD instead all the worthless notes.. don’t you think?
Granted.. GV’s system, policies, biz model may have flaws but thank God for the investigations it can only get better from now especially after so much scrutiny from the relevant authorities. Can you imagine any company intenting to scam public money is allow to change certain policies and best of all have their biz restored? Change is good if it is meant to improve the system and more importantly for compliance issues. Even companies or government do change policies from time to time but having said that, nothing is permanent in this world. Who knows GV may face other unknown challenges in the future after this round of inquiry but nevertheless for now I suppose all investors or GV agent can move forward with greater confidence and peace of mind.
Finally, my advice to you guys… be constructive, stay positive, have an open mind, continue to look for opportunities, take some risks and don’t be too judgemental.
Best wishes to all of you
Replyplease lah…..u write with good english but i can see greed in it…..the 2% return, let us do a simple calculation 2% to customer 1% to agent and his manager overriding commission (might be more i only know got 2tiers with 0.7 and 0.3) and company operating cost estimate at 1% (include some promotion like another 0.5% extra to the customer during our national day)…..so we assume a total of 4% per month and if this were to compound for a year it will be almost 66% return for this investment….wait the company must still earn a profit after giving out the return to the customer….wow how can genneva make this kind of profit and so stupid to give this good return to the public…….B plus u remind me the customer still hold the physical gold at around 80% of the value…..think GENNEVA can easily borrow money from bank with gold as a collateral with a very low interest………..why con people….sigh
ReplyThey continue to con the unsuspecting public. Check out their ad on Facebook and what they are saying below. If I were you guys, I would get one of the authorities to undercover and attend this – see how their ponzi works.
“Our company has made buying and selling of Physical Gold easier and more attractive by offering instant discounts and trade-in at original prices.
Come listen to understand more about how this scheme can help you to grow your money.
Time : 730pm to 9pm
Venue : Far East Shopping Center #16-13
Fee : FREE (RSVP required)
Registration start from 715pm. Light refreshment will be provided.
If you are interested, kindly RSVP via sms your name to 90097218.”
Replyat least it’s proven that there is something wrong currently.
otherwise there would be no need to alter their current business operations.
Replygenneva singapore has already made changes that made me more confident in putting my money there
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[Quote] # Voice of Reason
Bank Negara Malaysia Investigates Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd
Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced investigations into Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities in breach of subsection 25(1) of the Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).[/Quote].
————————-
Based on the article above, Genneva is under investigation of “illegal deposit” taking activities by BNM.
“Illegal deposit” taking as in, they (BNM) afraid Genneva taking people money doing something hanky panky and run away with the deposit. In this case, Genneva might not doing something illegal with the deposits but selling a genuine gold to investors.
Analogy: When I purchase a house (gold), I give the money to the developer (Genneva), the developer (Genneva) give me the completed house (gold), thus willing buyer and willing seller – no deposit taking for other reason but solely a normal sale and purchase of a genuine physical house (gold). Just like in pasar malam, you pay the fishmonger, the fishmonger give you a fish – normal transaction.
Therefore, I allege that BNM couldn’t charge anything onto Genneva under this category.
[Quote] # gvmngmt
Every step of probes and investigations by BN are smoothly processed through and positively we are in the progress of implementing new company policy, altering new business model, strategies, terms n conditions so to qualify to meet up BN’s approval standard.[/Quote]
Will BNM able to tell the public that this investment concept is sustainable since they are being raided under the category of “illegal deposit” taking rather than the sustainability factor?
BNM is a neutral body, will they able to give comments on this? I allege, The BNM can only ensure the public whether Genneva is “Illegal deposit” taking or not. Will have to wait for the final results.
I’m posting this before the release of the results from BNM. I have this funny feeling, if I were to post this after the results released, many pro will hurl their accusation on me for being skeptical/cynical of whatever is being clarified in the first place.
In summary, “Illegal Deposit” taking is one case, sustainability is other case.
Genneva gold might be another Wright’s Brothers, where nobody thought human can fly (possible 24%p.a via new business model?) but eventually can (yes 24%p.a possible via new business model) or just an innovated-Ponzi scheme claimed by others?
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Dear all Genneva Investors,
Thank you for your kind patient while awaiting for the BN investigation results, please to be informed that we will be back on business again soon by Sept 2009.
Every step of probes and investigations by BN are smoothly processed through and positively we are in the progress of implementing new company policy, altering new business model, strategies, terms n conditions so to qualify to meet up BN’s approval standard.
Hoping to receive your further continuous supports and utmost thanks for believing in us. In every business, pressures are crucial, but it is worth a lifetime. Somehow, if we can battle our confident against bad rumors, critics and other, we will be united much stronger and much happier in business world.
Thank you.
Hoping to see all of you again soon!
ReplyIf as a result of the investigation, Genneva Gold can come up with a new business model that is sustainable and rewarding to both investors and the company, then it will be a good thing.
Replyplease lah……why cheating people money, if u can make that kind of profit bank will be more willing to lend u money with ur gold as a collateral and ur good company will only need to give a very low interest for that…..and must disguise urself by saying 2% discount instead of 2% interest and using secondhand goods license to mislead people…….
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I read this thread with interest. I like to share my thoughts on Genneva’s business model.
Genneva’s business model looks more like a “gold pawn shop” + “money borrowing” tightly integrated together; so tight that it is being deceived as “gold trader”.
Until now they have not convincingly presented how they are able to make profits by gold trading to pay out 20 to 40% to their clients every year.
Many justify it is not a scam simply because Genneva pay on time to their clients. And that they refund original value of the gold if the clients decide to cash out.
We shouldn’t judge the legitamacy of this model by validating Genneva’s fullfilment of the contract or the purity of gold or the transaction is legal or even after Bank Negara’s investigation.
There is strong possibility that this model is a scam simply because the payouts to clients are not due to efforts of gold trading in the market but mainly contributed by the 20~30% above spot price that Genneva charge to clients.
Genneva offers gold that are market valued at spot price to clients in exchange for cash amount to retailed valued price, which is about 20~30% higher than spot price.
With the additional funding from the public, they buy more gold therefore raise their capital. Raising capital is not profit, in accounting term this is actually a liability because this money is not profit from gold trading in the market, but it is “recycled funding” from the public’s hard earned money; therefore it is considered liability because it belongs to the public not profit earned from gold trading.
If Bank Negara’s audit exercise successfully distinguished the business model, they would be able to tell whether there is “money borrowing” or “illegal deposits” disguised in a gold trading model.
It is not wrong conducting “gold pawn shop” model. Furthermore the gold traded is pure as testified by many investors, and no complaints or police report lodge on fake gold transacted either. I agree and have no doubts on the authenticity of the clients’ testimony. However we shouldn’t dwell on this point to justify the legitimacy of Genneva’s business model, as it is not sufficient to uphold the monthly 2~4% rebate/discount that Genneva promise to their gold buyers.
The logic is if Genneva can generate such high profit simply by doing gold trading (buy low, sell high), would they go all the trouble and risk to share their profits to other gold investors. They are offering 20 to 40% per annum to investors, why not take the profits themselves.
Why are they paying agents commissions to invite other investors to participate in this scheme? Let me give you the answer, if they can’t get new capital in, they won’t have sufficient to distribute the ‘rebates’ or ‘discounts’ to others.
Gold prices are very stable, it is impossible to generate 20 ~ 40% profit consistently simply by buying and selling in the market, especially if you take into account storage, melting, workmanship & wastage cost. All these cost are unavoidable, therefore gold traders sells at below market price to take into account the cost of processing the gold.
I have no intention to explain the mechanism of determining the price, as I believe many here know better, but to think of Genneva able to take sufficient profit from gold trading in the market, to pay 20 ~ 40% to other gold buyers is simply unbelievable!!
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Hi Intheknow, lioninvestor and all
I am new to this part of the blog (Genneva Gold) but not at Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 8 notes. I am sure Intheknow and lioninvestor knows me.
I am really an “idiot” to invest a sizeable sum (25%) of my saving in the notes and suffers some sleepless night. Fortunately, due to advice of intheknow, lioninvestor and many others, I survived that crisis (the invested sum is intact and I do believe BOA will be ok for the next 1.5 yrs) . I take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank Intheknow, lioninvestor and many others who shared in Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 8 notes. It helped many investors there I believe.
Why am I saying all this here?
I saw this blog (Genneva Gold) today and spent almost 2 hours reading from the first post to the last. I cant help but feel the same sense of loss some investors may be experiencing right now.
Just my 2 cents worth after merrill notes incident
1. If something is too good to be true, it almost truly is.
Merrill Notes: The annual return is 3.15%. It is higher than fixed deposit interest. I was not told there is a risk. I was told as long as I put the money with the bank for 2.25 yrs , I will get the interest. Too good to be true..I did not think why is there a difference (comparing to teh fixed deposit interest… )
GG: If the model is truly good and sustainable, the organiser will easily get his own fund, bank loan, private investor etc etc and make the big buck. Why would he allow the public to have a slice of the cake? There is NO FREE lunch.
2. The organiser of GG are not stupid. They will cover every angle, every possible questions that investor may post at them so as to convince investor to put money with them. If you have no experience is company law, trading gold, gold market, banking law etc it is very easy to be deceived.
Even banks can deceive you legally and why not this organiser with a capable lawyer.
So if you are not convinced (point 1) or not understand or are doubtful , then dont invest…
Once again thanks Intheknow, lioninvestor and all. Good work and may GOD bless you.
ReplySound really exciting especially the idea of “Getting gold instant at the same day”….
yes, really, get the gold instant at the same day, if u settle the payment before 2.00pm, u get the gold at 4.00pm, that’s it, “very senang” than keep in, or “pajak” it, what ever u want to do, remember to get it back and renew it after 1 month and you get the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. VERY HAPPY VERY HAPPY.
ReplyYes, Congratulations that you are happy.
Thank you for believing in my business, please do not let the others who think they are very intelligent, sometime these people end-up by talk much, earn less.. worst part is they are not rich at all even at their age right now.
I’m quite interested in yr business. Can u email me more info at [email protected]
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hi all,don’t discuss anything,just discuss gold, bying gold,earn money. that’s all. I came from alor star, here i have invest buying gold earn 3.3% a month, guarantee buy back after 1 month, so far so good. get my gold instant at the same day, keep it, renew after 1 month. very happy with it, its a good income. VERY HAPPY.
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http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html
enuff said , end of story …those who want to believe go and invest…
those who already believed …good for u …. sell house , sell car, borrow credit line , anything u can liquidate to get more $$ and PLEASE DUMP it into this gorilla gold
those who dun believe…. end of story…. but u may come back and “cho cho” when gorilla gold is shut …. 🙂
Replythis is the sort of discussion that MLM people always use.
Try to distract the point by bringing up non-relevant issues.
For example, when we ask them about risk of the company, they bring up things like we are young should take risk, or don’t worry we have many clients.
Totally not relevant. So I am still not going to answer for goofy.
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It is cos they can’t hide the truth that Geneva is a scam, they ran out of bullets ! So they try to divert attention by posting nonsensical stuff, and making personal attacks, which only reflects their low IQ and EQ !
ReplyWho the hell and what the “F” is this “Goofy”?
Must be another smart alacks trying to impress all those who like to feed on nonsenses and rubbishes …
The public does not read here .. just the opposite of what Goofy fantasied. Poor Goofy!
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Soh I am not even going waste time you… at least Goofy has some brains; you I think this material may be beyond you, maybe before you open your mouth you should think first, process the info SLOWLY… then speak, wait… maybe not, for you spend more time thinking and talk less 😉
Reply“Irrelevant” what is that?? Sounds like you are limiting the boundaries, discussions are meant to expand the boundaries, too bad…
Not stepping up to the the plate; I guess Goofy you have to come through man, I thought maybe In-The-Know might step up, but its all you now…
Replydws – your comments keep repeating the same stupid arguments, nothing new at all ! And this further validates your low IQ and EQ !! LOL
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Hey, how many times must I tell you… for you, you need to talk less and think more, throw in one more, which is listening as well… Perfect balance for you dun you think?? You see for you, especially YOU should listen SLOWLY… dun TALK, and thereafter listen again more carefully, then process the info but take your time, take as much time as required to think it through.
Maybe you actually have some IQ, then tell me in specific details my above statements are untrue and that they make no sense at all? I would gladly have an interesting discussion with you? So easy to just say they are stupid arguments, and nothing new at all (based on your own words) so you actually know what I am talking about so I guess it would be easy for you refute my position? 😉
I dun see the smarter ones like “In-The-Know” or “Goofy” trying to answer or refute my position. I suggest either you step up to the plate or just keep quiet(I am being nice today its TGIF!)
Replywhat’s the point? as an agent of genneva earning 1% per month you are obviously vested and biased. whatever we say will meet your usual smoke and mirrors to mislead and deflect the truth; couched in pseudo- intellectual argument; and then name calling. you and other genneva agents modus operandi are all alike, just that your command of english is better.
but this forum has served a big purpose: google ‘genneva’ today and this blog comes out tops in search rankings. even journalists/TV are reading and researching from the posts of this blog. even screenshots!
the public wil read here, and let them come to their own conclusions
ReplyWow!! Goofy you acting all “RIGHTEOUS” man! If my memory serves me correctly you referred to some as primates, I think the word you specifically used was “Baboons”, in fact, if you do a search for “Baboons” its all you man! 🙂
Another is if I did not know any better I think you starting to develop feelings for me 🙂 First you said my arguments were “Balance and made sense” and now you say that I have a better command of English. Are you having a crush on me? This reminds of the story whereby the young man pursues the girl of his dreams with all his heart but is fiercely objected by the girl’s father due to his class, but eventually won over by his commitment, sincrety and honesty. (I was going add, handsome, charming, smart, atheletic, but I thought it’s going to be an overkill 🙂 ha ha ) Btw, if I am the young man and you are the father, I just hope your daughter is beautiful! 😉
Since you won’t answer by earlier questions I shall re-phrase and ask for your opinion your definition of “Ponzi”, so that we can have civic discourse? My definition of Ponzi, for anything that even comes close or potentially ascertained as a Ponzi scheme it needs to fufill both these requirements at the same time…
1) New money vested/purchased from existing and/or new customers.
2) No actual product or service is being rendered for that agreed upon new money between buyer and seller; but just a promise to pay in a form of IOUs or its equivalent.
So Genneva based on my definition is not Ponzi, if you disagree please elaborate? 😉
Btw, for all Gold Longs, you must be at least having a grin on your face 😉 !!
Replywho do you think you are, Soh?
or rather “what” do you think you are?
We read some of your comments and before we finished it, we already felt very, very sick with low EQ idiot like you.
ReplyWhy is it irrelevant? Since we are identifying scams, should not we look at all things financial especially if it vesting our hard earn money?? Especially if it has a wider reach and affects, don’t you think? Like I said earlier answer my question above and I will tell you why? Maybe you can answer on behalf of Goofy?? 😉
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