Genneva Gold

Intheknow says 14 years ago

dws, what you are saying is totally irrelevant to our discussion on Genneva Gold.

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dws says 14 years ago

I am back goofy 🙂 u miss me? Anyway I agree Genneva is small fry in the whole money game, why dun we raise stakes a bit… we focusing on small fries in this discussion lets raise it to higher level and let’s call it as it is… everyone wants to make money some body loses money, the world is not fair as somebody needs to lose so that someone makes; the pie is only so big. This is biz, no more no less but there is a huge unfair advantage…

The biggest players of the money game, known fact are governments/banks, as they control the supply of it, by lowering/increasing interest rates by the printing of it. The US government which is currently printing money(a.k.a. quantitative easing) to pay for its debts and we all know that it is not backed by anything but a promise, is that a scam? Isn’t that kinda running the largest ponzi scheme on the planet? Why, coz they are the reserve currency of world, they have a open credit line by borrowing against their currency through willingly countries/banks to support their debt, in the process it loses its purchasing power over time, through this borrowing is required to pay off the previous debts/interest/payments (sound familiar?) So, it usually benefits the ones that use this newly printed money 1st (Again does this not sound familiar 😉 ) Next question, to ask is normally who gets this money 1st?

Isn’t this also like stealing from John to give to Tom? Some people call it indirect taxation, through the rising of prices, what has change is not so much the goods and services but the increase in the supply of money thus you have more money chasing the same level of goods and services therefore and increase in prices, natural conclusion. In schools we are almost always taught of supply and demand for everything else but almost never when it relates to utility of money, I guess those same laws apply? 🙂 Just let history be your guide so many examples, Japanese banana money, Wiemar Germany just to name a few… Who would this affect? this would affect all, coz everyone, needs to eat, sleep and drink but it would always affect the poor and needy more, as they have to content with lesser pay and higher costs! What Madoff did, by comparison is a drop of water in the ocean, no doubt it was wrong nonetheless, it mainly messed up the rich, coz I dun think Madoff was interested in savings accounts less than $10k 🙂

Since you are such good at calling scams like me ask you this now, whether you have power to change it or not is a separate matter, is this a scam? Please be honest and courageous since you are honest and courageous about “small fry” companies like Genneva? If you say this is not a scam, give me specific reasons and examples, use mathematics, science, history to prove , whatever to substantiate your stand? In fact, maybe use mathematics, calculate their debt, divide by each man, woman and child and see how much the owe now and the future? Can the US even support the interests payments alone now(does this not sound familiar to you again? 😉 ) Please use the same rules that you would you use to judge Genneva and apply it in this case?

Why is this important? Isn’t this missing the boat you may ask? Good questions, but I will answer these once you answer my question above?

I remember a famous quote by a Rothschild goes something like this, “I care not the laws of the land as long as I have control over the issuance and supply of money I can change the laws.” How very true indeed, very sad 🙁

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

Haih …
Its been awhile since I last came to this forum …
Same old sh*t .. same old debate .. same old people .. Anything new other than judging and pointing fingers without having any prove or facts to back you guys up?

So after much discussion, whats the conclusion ?
Is it proven that Genneva is indeed a scam ? Has Genneva break the law ? Is it closed down by the government already ? What is the actual status ? From what I see from here … It seems like we actually have a conclusion – Genneva is a SCAM !!

So what if they are actually giving discount ? I am doing business myself and that is a part of marketing. I heard news that Jaya Jusco, Giant, Tesco, Carrefour and all other hypermarkets and 90% of all retail outlets is closing down by the end of the year because the Chinese New Year Mega Sale is coming … Isn’t that what you guys were saying ? Giving discount = ponzi about to collapse, scam bla bla bla …

Come on guys .. lets wait for the final outcome and stop acting like a bunch of aunties !! Well I won’t be coming to this forum for some time 🙂 So you guys can curse, spread rumours and gossip all you want .. lastly, I think lioninvestor should prevent users under 7 years old from posting in this forum … why let adults with a 7 year old attitude post in this forum? You know who you are … GROW UP !!

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

agents also disppeared from this forum.

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Madoff says 14 years ago

A fool is born a minute.
If i can fool the American public for over 40years to the tune of USD65bil, whats with these small fries here?

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Madoff says 14 years ago

Goto Genneva singapore website……ooops*

“Page not found
The page you are looking for might have been removed,
had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. “

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bhaas says 14 years ago

What is the status now? Can i sell back the golds to any goldsmith shops? I need the money now. When the Genneva will sit down and discuss with Bank Negara Malaysia to solve the public money who had invested with you. Please keep updates the situation through media or sms so that the investors will be confident always with you.

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happy says 14 years ago

你們好, 我們和金利華之間的黄金買賣交易向來都很滿意, 我們也向我國, 國家銀行了解我們是不是受害者, 有關當局不能肯定，只能說正在調查. 同時也向首相署投訴局报告希望有關政府部門的辦事效力尽早處理此事．

朋友我知道人家買黄金一次就是百萬, 你買了多少? 不明白没和金利華有生意交易又不了解金利華生意的人却如此緊張大反金利華是為了什麼？ 就是給你們向有關當局投訴也是莫各其妙．

新加坡朋友如果真的這麼關心請帮忙，提供金利華生意在新加坡是不是合法，如果合法，我們會考慮向貴國金利華買黄金．謝謝！

黄金的可愛之處：
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im7W1AnDmgA

謝謝國家銀行的調查

BNMTELELINK (Customer Service Call Centre)
Tel: 1-300-88-5465
Fax: 03-21741515
Email: [email protected]

BNMLINK (Customer Service Walk-In-Centre)
Block D, Bank Negara Malaysia ,
Jalan Dato’ Onn, 50480, Kuala Lumpur
(Business hours: Monday-Friday, 9.00 am – 5.00 pm)

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Jackson says 14 years ago

anyone remembered Swisscash ? Perhaps anyone who wants to invest in such product can do a google on swisscash before making such a move.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

bank run is too kind a term to use.

fraud/scam run is more like it.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

latest update about Genneva Singapore:

They are in a cash crunch now. There is likely a bank run on them right now. One agent just mass sms a “special national day offer”

They are now offering 2.5% per month for August!!!

This usually happens when a ponzi about to collapse.

The sudden increase of interest rate by 25% overnight is a great leading indicator for their imminent collapse.

Perhaps in 6 weeks they will offer “Hari Raya Puasa Special 5%”.

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goofy says 14 years ago

lol. a faux pas it was not

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dws says 14 years ago

I agree, I am way out of your league 😉

Anway I am going to do my part to keep this discussion as civic as possible.

As to your qn on “could you kindly walk thru with us the mechanism of how an investor would hypothetically invest 1oz ($1000k spot) worth, for 12 mths?”

I thought this process for this was already mentioned and well documented earlier in this thread, if there is please direct Goofy, if not someone can help follow up?

Its gonna be crazy for me for the next few days I will try to follow up at the tail end of this week, if not later. Sorry.

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lioninvestor says 14 years ago

To all, kindly refrain from name calling and getting personal in your replies. We are here to discuss about the issue, and not about the people who are posting here.

Whether agents or not, you are all welcome to post here. Readers can read both sides of the stories and make their own informed decision.

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DeadBecauseOfRumours says 14 years ago

Easy to destroy…. hard to build……

time to give it a rest and see if Genneva can survive the many evil curses. No amount of arguments is going to change the minds of anti-Genneva agents.

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dws says 14 years ago

K, I am game, let’s do this…

I am going to be as CLEAR as possible for the sake of InTheknow and Goofy so here goes…

Q1- 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing

Ans:

Again, I cannot speak for Malaysia but I think I can safely speak for Singapore. We are not under investigation here in Singapore. And if we continually show that we are above board with all our transactions; transparent and honest in all our dealings we should be alright. Also, I understand each invoice that is generated now, is fully computerized and meets with the current accounting standards. One more thing my math is not really good, so please don’t send me email if its off by 1 or 2%, coz I know some of you are Math professors and all, if you do don’t expect and answer from me. I am only going to deliver the key messages.

Since we are comparing with UOB so let’s be specific in this case, UOB Singapore also charges 7% GST plus some admin charge over let’s use the 100g PAMP Swiss Gold bar at today’s price(check UOB website) to keep this as current as possible, UOB site has a sell price of 4824.63 and a buy price of 4403; a spread of about 9%~10% in this case. And if you buy from Genneva, you would buy it for about 20% (15% above spot, plus 7% GST – 2% discount). So the difference between UOB and Genneva is about 10%; so if we were to buy the same 100g gold bar from UOB or Genneva the difference is about 10%, it is 20% above spot but only 10% above UOB’s sell price. Btw, you seem like a smart fella but maybe not very familiar or experience with the Gold biz. If you can get me gold at spot, shall we not do biz today? In fact physical gold traders will be calling you!!! So my question to you now is since it is only 10% above UOB’s sell price is Genneva worth the risk? If Yes or No, tell us why? Now is time to put your $$$ where your mouth is 🙂 And dun give me a stupid answer like I want no risk coz and all gain, sorry I am not being rude, but direct.

Q2

– wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
In this case if you comparing with UOB than it is only 5 months 🙂

Q3

– then only maybe start getting 2% returns
Let me refine your question I think you meant to ask if after the 5months then you will start making the 2% YES, therefore you need to count the costs, No Guts No Glory man!

From what I read so far, obviously you do not understand the full benefits of Gold yet, my advice to you as why dun you guys read more about Gold and understand its value in history, now and in the time to come. I know it is a separate thing and all but I thing you guys should at least know something about if you are going to pay good money for it dun you think? Maybe GB5k can give you guys a personal tutorial on this topic? 🙂

As far as I know Genneva has never proclaimed itself as mutual fund or some investment company and I dun think we want o be one either, to me it is only but a Gold Trading company giving me a discount on the gold I purchase on a monthly basis. And if you actually understood the value of Gold, I would say what a good excuse Genneva is using, Gold to legitimize their biz model 🙂 Different perspectives my friend.

Also, one additional thing since it seems you both are quite experience and savy biz people. Have you guys walk the ground, feel the gold, talk to the people involved, or is these all kind of hallucinations up in your mind that is churning based on hearsay and past bad experiences etc.. Or is this substantiated by some hardcore facts, if so please present them? As to how they do their biz I have already mentioned before see my earlier posts if not I think some have posted earlier as well.

One question for InTheKnow, sorry I must ask this… I hope you dun find this slightly offensive but what are you in the know for? 🙂

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

i think this post from goofy summarises Genneva very well:

Again, you try to confuse the issue. The issue is not on whether gold is going up or down – it is the 20% markup you charge people for the same gold bullion that people can buy from UOB KL at 20% less than what you charge. Why would an investor pay:

– 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
– wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
– then only maybe start getting 2% returns

Your genneva scheme is not a business opportunity/venture, is not an investment, is not fund management – it is simply a confidence scheme cooked up to justify selling a common product at 20% more expensive than market rates, and holding this money for about a year. The only difference is that you are using gold as an excuse to legitimize your operations when really, people can get that themselves at UOB KL anytime.

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dws says 14 years ago

K, great now we can have sort of a friendly discussion here… well I think your opinions are generally fair, those were the same ones that I had when 1st started out as well… Genneva has a markup of about 20%(about 7% of that is GST in Singapore) I mean their biz model is not too complicated, the idea is to buy gold at lower prices using the $$ they make from the spread; and increase their gold holdings and perpetual this… If you look at their model they are like Pawn shops but doing it reversely, instead of pple pawning their gold at for around 78 ~ 80% for the market price of gold on the day of transaction and are charged I think 1% ~ 2% monthly interest. Having more gold overtime benefits the company as gold can always be converted to cash and vice versa unless of course you are holding the Zimbawa dollar 🙂 Also, if you need to raise cash for this biz you can also pawn your gold and raise about 80% of its fair value at any given time, and later when Gold prices increases you can later sell it but I am hedge earlier at a lower price inspite of paying that 1% ~2% monthly interests.

So in the nutshell you are investing in their gold trading biz and they are paying you interests on that upfront cash that u have vested. The technical term they use is monthly discount because Genneva is not an investment company.

Btw, I am fully aware that of the risks, and accept them, please do not mistake me for one that does not, I thought I made myself quite clear, aparently not sufficient enough?? Anyway, I have been up to the KL office before and I understand that the reason they are being investigated is because of some illegal deposit taking as they may be running a plan whereby the customers do not actually take stock of the physical gold to gain better returns? I know definitely in Singapore Genneva does not run a similar program, its always cash for gold. Again, I would be weary of situations whereby u get better returns without holding gold as collateral. Someone whose in the know please elaborate on this matter??

Btw, on to legal matters, even if you go through the court systems, it will take years before a resolution comes in, whereby in hour of your need you need the cash and it is not there? Also, I can repay all the money to you but in monthly installments for 30 years, where does leave you, I think the word that you are left with is “Screwed”. Appearance of what is True maynot be necessarily be true.

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DeadBecauseOfRumours says 14 years ago

Poor Genneva…. lots of wolves trying to kill it !!!

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Pips says 14 years ago

Guys… cut the crap and stop debating…

1st: what is investment?
from what i know, investment means taking a part of risk to generate some returns.. higher risk, higher returns, lower risk,lower returns.

2nd: thats the big deal of marking up 20%.. imagine you din even know know the product real value. but u are assured a net 2% monthly… thats an investment too…

3rd: back by goverment so what? look at our pinacle notes, madoff. they are back by govt. Banks oso will fall…

So ultimately, all investment is consider a good investment until when u reap the returns… and depends on your risk apetite..

Dont keep call people scam/ponzi/pyramid… if it is, why are people earning returns from it.. same like buying stocks or property.. had been booming for 10 years and suddenly a downfall.. bubble burst… you call it a scam??? everything comes with a Risk.. and this RIsk is up to each individual to judge against your apetite to the market…

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goofy says 14 years ago

Again, you try to confuse the issue. The issue is not on whether gold is going up or down – it is the 20% markup you charge people for the same gold bullion that people can buy from UOB KL at 20% less than what you charge. Why would an investor pay:

– 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
– wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
– then only maybe start getting 2% returns

Your genneva scheme is not a business opportunity/venture, is not an investment, is not fund management – it is simply a confidence scheme cooked up to justify selling a common product at 20% more expensive than market rates, and holding this money for about a year. The only difference is that you are using gold as an excuse to legitimize your operations when really, people can get that themselves at UOB KL anytime.

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dws says 14 years ago

One more thing… I just saw this but for the benefit of all…

“limited liability company with zero fiscal mgmt credibility, registered to a condo, founded in malaysia, run out of orchard towers, and supported by a bunch of hacks who cannot speak properly, are obviously unsophisticated in financial knowledge, and try to smoke their way through arguments.”

So people who lost so much money in supposely simple but were actually complex and highly risky instruments were supposely from financially sound insitutions, 100% fiscal mgmt credibility, good address location, sophiscated financial knowledge, speak very well, dress in suits; I guess you rather be con by them? 🙂

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dws says 14 years ago

Goofy your name is so cute and adorable 🙂 I hope that you are not so cute and adorable when it comes to putting your hard earn in investing? 😉

Where in world you do not take calculated risk(a.k.a. count the costs) on a biz venture, investments and/or transactions hoping for a gain later, nothing is 100% make money, you tell me now what you have that is 100% safe and sure make money I have ready investors waiting to jump in now!!

Its always how much $$ u lose as compared to how much money you make; ask GB5k or any sophiscated investor/trader they do do this on a daily basis, friend nothing 100% sure, in fact if someone says that they are 100% sure make $$$, advise run the other way!

And ask any biz man, some biz ventures lose money and others make, I guess the ones that are profitable make more than they lose. Are you the sort that talks alot but when it comes down to it, as in putting your $$$ where your mouth is maybe you don’t? I am not sure coz I don’t know but you sure display some tendencies 🙂

So for Genneva, I am just keeping it simple for you 😉 20% markup, 2 % monthly, asset appreciating over time, every month you get the 2% your risk also reduces. So in terms of biz setting, I am risking 20% to get a 2% monthly and over a longer haul the asset is appreciating. I think its worth the risk 😉 what do you think Goofy? Think about it other people have risked all their hard earn savings on more establish names and have gotten nothing back, hopefully this is still fresh in your memory, if not, just ask and will be happy to throw some names at you? Again, let me very clear I like “Gold” my view is fully skewed to the long term benefits of Gold. Genneva is just one of the many of the instruments out there.

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Soh says 14 years ago

We won’t want to waste our breath on the Geneva agents here. Who in the right sense of mind would still tell investors it is safe to invest in Geneva when the firm is currently under investigation by the authorities. Isn’t it obvious they are the owners and cronies of Geneva as they alone stand to gain from the investors’ loss !

And I am being nice when I said cronies, someone else would have said fraudsters and crooks !! And yes, one more thing, these cronies should go get a life instead of prowling around this forum endlessly and laying baits to hook innocent victims.

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goofy says 14 years ago

and for god’s sake – stop living off the gullibility of unsophisticated ‘investors’ and pulling fast ones. Get a proper job. Do your parents even know the potential damage you’re causing innocent retirees savings? Utter disappointments

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andrew says 14 years ago

Goofy,

Pls mind your language, we invests where we like and take our own risk. But I don’t think we should be called idiot or complete maroon for that.

I wonder (in your language,) what you called those who bought the 999 gold from retail outlets that sell 20% more and don’t give anything back?

I hope those who wish to give their advice, do it more professional rather than calling all kind of names.

At the same time, I wonder you call all those who don’t buy from you (so called ‘experts’) Idiots and morons also.

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goofy says 14 years ago

at the end of the day, only an idiot and complete moron would pay 20% more than what he could get easily at UOB, wait 10 months to get his own 20% paid back to him slowly, and then hope that he starts getting paid 2% per month by a small limited liability company with zero fiscal mgmt credibility, registered to a condo, founded in malaysia, run out of orchard towers, and supported by a bunch of hacks who cannot speak properly, are obviously unsophisticated in financial knowledge, and try to smoke their way through arguments.

if you are such a moron after all the warnings from the start to end of this forum, please go ahead with your genneva investment. you deserve to be scammed and deserved no sympathy for your stupidity in the face of the obvious.

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dws says 14 years ago

Hey Goldclubasia,

Take it easy and everyone, let’s all focus on the big picture, the world is in the “shit hole”, sorry pardon my French… I am going to keep this simple, everyone has their own reasons\agenda for writing their comments here in this forum, and I am sure “Goldclubasia” or a.k.a “GB5000” reason u have that nick is obviously u are super bullish on Gold, and reading your posts obviously I gather you are as well, also u sell stuff on your website silver and gold(hopefully u make a profit, and I am pretty sure you do 🙂 obviously this is at your really really free time coz I assume you are very bz working with 50 million dollar funds 🙂 I mean sure, you are sophisticated investor and all most of us aren’t so, and buying physical metals at 7.5% ~ 8% above spot from uob or through your site may not be for everyone or every time, btw I have bought from UOB as well before. Also, I read some where, is there another place/site for buying n selling gold at fair spreads, someone who knows please help answer?

To the rests… Here’s my take on Geneva, selling options, puts all costs money, genneva’s model will not work over time because it is mathematically impossible! And this I agree with GB5K. However, because their base is “Gold” this really has a good chance, let me explain… moving forward with the continued price increase, more biz, means bigger base(more gold bought at a lower price) thus facilitating continue expansion, you dun really need to be too smart to organize something you know that is going up to effectively scale in/dollar cost average into the position over time, and with extra money keep buying into the asset, over time your base would get bigger… this would quite easily cover the costs of the 2% and commissions and please note this is my view only, this would probably work for at least the next 2~3 years minimum, longer if it goes up to 5000 as our friend GB5k has predicted over the long haul 😉 If that happens this would last very much longer! Dun forget gold has been appreciating average 25% a year for the last 5 years alone.

Btw, understanding the inherent risks, I am transacting with Genneva for the time being 🙂 and at the same time for GB5000 I have bought stuff from your site as well 🙂

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

hmm.. if i am a savvy investor.. i believe i would rather the scheme be proven GENUINE before I go in.

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raj says 14 years ago

Hi,

I hope everyone reading this forum understands the situation appropriately. As far as i know and understand, genneva is under investigation by bank negara and so is etika emas. The bank wants to see if everything is being done within the law.

It is not fair for people to keep on posting on the forums/ sites that it is a scam.. you are not guilty unless proven guilty yes, you can mention that you think the scheme is blah blah blah.. but don’t call it scam.. its the same as calling someone a murderer, eventhough he is still under investigation.

I do not mean to hurt anyone’s felling.. just sharing mine.

Well that’s the whole reason for forum’s right ..

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PipS says 14 years ago

Regarding the options strategy, it do exist just that people did not knew it..

what if they already had the gold with them since few years back where got is abt $500-$700 they r gaining profit in anyway.. anyway i not here to debate.. coz it looks interesting and i might wanna invest with them.. the only prob i need to know is whether they mean wat i say.. by doing the hedging options…

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

The investigation got triggered for one reason only: 2% per month return promised by their scheme.

Yes, it is possible for them to make money & stay in business forever if they just sold gold bullion at a premium with put option attached. But where does the 2% per month come from?

Selling/buying option is not risk free. There is also no option strategy in the world that will get your losses covered under all conditions without paying extra money for it.

For the layman, I can describe options best as insurance policies for your investments. If it does not get triggered, it expires. You LOSE the money for the premium paid for options. There is NO WAY you can get return on your option money in ALL situations.

What Genneva promised is simply impossible to deliver. It’s the 2% that kills it.

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PipS says 14 years ago

# GoldClubAsiaon 16 Jul 2009 at 2:00 pm
http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html

Congrats! Genneva is listed as the latest scam!

Seriously, I did not even know anything about their 4 tiers overriding commission scheme. This is a deadly giveaway:

Quote:

“Those without money to invest can join in as sales person with 4 tiers overriding commission of up to 1%. My friend asked me to burrow money from my insurance policy to invest in Genneva gold after I told him I have no money to invest. He quitted after one week citing non transparency of the company as a reason.”

Btw, I am NOT a competitor of Genneva. I am a gold futures trader for a hedge fund. We are not even allowed to take in any clients with less than $1m networth.

goldclubasia.com is just my pet project over the last 2 years to give retail gold bullion investors some free educational material and a platform to sell/buy bullion from each other without middlemen. I have never earned a single cent from that website.

If I want to compete with Genneva, all I need to do is to set up a shell company and offer 2.1%/month return. Probably with 3 months all their victims would switch over to my ponzi scheme. hahaha…..

Unless i read wrong.. By the way, I’m not saying this is a scam. i juz wanted to tell u if Whats the only reason for this things to fail… since they hedge it by selling a put option, there’s no way they will lose money.. they will even make money…

they sell me at 1200. if price fall, they haf the option to sell at pre-determine price. if price rise, after buy back from investor, they r buying gold at a cheaper price…

to sum it up, 2 things.

gold price fall, they are selling at higher price in the option.
gold price rise, they are buying it at a lower price from the investor back.

brilliant idea… thats one of the stocks investment strategy.

adding to the advantage is that, they are the one that produce to gold..
Gold can be melted to make into jewellry.. thats how i thing this company works..

The only thing i’m worried is that, they did not actually do wat i say…

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PipS says 14 years ago

I saw this investment from my facebook account and google some info regarding the this gold investment. i read the post from the beginning till the end and this is how i feel.

Beginning: Wow this looks legit with the eg of saying they buy a put option on gold price. (i’m a trader so this methods works well especially they are the one that have factory and produce gold)

Middle: sending email to MAS/CAD and malaysia for investigation.(how can they be a scam.. the methods works fine….)

Last: ok.. it is scam by wat the reply from Malaysia govt.

Now, a few things ponder on my head..

Why this MAY be a scam is because they never really buy a put option. if they buy, they wont make a loss.. why? because of holding power… so wat if they have 2 tonnes of gold? if go price soar like mad, they will be rich like nobody business. gold price soar high because of inflation.. then by the time, money will be worthless.. people will use gold to buy stuff instead of using cash….

correct me if i’m wrong…

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goofy says 14 years ago

Well, these ‘skeptics’ have at least lodged their concerns as a matter of public record. If something smells fishy, it’s probably because the salmon is starting to rot.

At least the arguments here hopefully will make people ask the right questions before they ‘invest’. No one can stop investors from being scammed – it is their choice and their money.

There’s a new post here by lion – http://www.martinlee.sg/warren-buffett%e2%80%99s-top-3-advice-for-the-average-person-who-wants-to-grow-their-savings-and-keep-it-safe/

great read

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Opportunist says 14 years ago

Hello all,

Looks like it’s biz as usual in SG, in fact volume has increased considerably, no issues, nothing affected, no panics…
Funny.. Ironically the ones panicking are not the investors but the Genneva skeptics here in this forum.
SG is a seperate entity from their Malaysian counterpart though owners may be the same people.

I also understand that investigation in Malaysia is going on very smoothly and a positive outcome is on the cards.

Cheers ..

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

QiYo, you have done your homework before committing money. That is a good thing. I believe even when this thing goes belly up, you will not regret your investment decision.

Regarding the paid up capital: It is usually just a book entry. If your company’s auditor insists, you can still put in the money for one day, take it out the next again. Most of the time this type of money is earmarked as “due to the directors”. This makes it easier for the directors to take cash OUT of the operations.

I believe that the company owners are caught off-guard by the BNM investigation. Normally a ponzi only triggers investigation AFTER it busts. They are still in their growth phase, usually nothing can happen to such a scheme at such an early stage.

For you, as a genuine investor who believes what Genneva advertises, you have a good chance to get some of your money back. The key is to file police report early so you can be ahead of other creditors.

One thing is for sure, for such a well constructed ponzi, the directors have already their exit all covered before this thing went public. Right now they will just use anything to buy some more time.

Qiyo, I really hope that you will get all of your money back this time, I really do. The hope goes to all other victims of Genneva.

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goof says 14 years ago

Even from the US Google servers the site cannot be viewed. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=en&tl=zh-CN&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genneva.com%2F)

The Genneva site was consciously taken down by the administrators. As if you go to http://www.genneva.com/cpanel

It is still valid and can still be accessed.

There is no IP block of sorts – its just that the site has been taken down.

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sunshine says 14 years ago

the website is working fine. no issue for me.

maybe you can try to use external proxy server to view the website again?

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goofy says 14 years ago

Raj and Littlegold, you guys are fibbing. Even from the US Google servers the site cannot be viewed. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=en&tl=zh-CN&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genneva.com%2F)

The Genneva site was consciously taken down by the administrators. As if you go to http://www.genneva.com/cpanel

It is still valid and can still be accessed.

There is no IP block of sorts – its just that the site has been taken down.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

singapore cannot view:

“Forbidden
You don’t have permission to access / on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.”

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LittleGold says 14 years ago

[email protected] <– without the david@. .. .. its seems that this guy is a web blogger only by looking at his website http://www.davcheong.com .. strange.. how come his name was on the whois? I think he is a web designer for GV…

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LittleGold says 14 years ago

So far so good here. No prob viewing here. US

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raj says 14 years ago

hi,

genneva website is ok. http://www.genneva.com.

no prob to login.

view the notices posted.

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goof says 14 years ago

yup no longer working. tried using both a malaysian and US IP. The domain is registered to:

MR DAVID CHEONG [email protected] +6.0126410195
Genneva Sdn Bhd
52A-1 JALAN KUCHAI MAJU 6, OFF JALAN KUCHAI LAMA
Kuala Lumpur,Wilayah Persekutuan,MY 58200

But the genneva.com.sg site is still up. That’s registered to:

GENNEVA PTE. LTD. (SGNIC-ORGGE305699)
Registered Address(line1): 400 Orchard Rd #05-27
Registered Address(line2): Orchard Towers Front Blk
Registered Address(line3):
Registered State:
Registered Country: SG
Registered Postalcode: 238875

Telephone: 67389883
Facsimile: 67389882
EMAIL: [email protected]

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Can someone here confirm that the genneva dot com main website is no longer available? when I type into the browser, it says that I do not have the permission to access their website etc…..

Is my IP address blocked by them or are they gone for good? Any Malaysian readers care to confirm? Thanks!

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

There are only two possible outcome:

a)Investigation shows that Genneva is a ponzi or illegal deposit operation (99.9% chance)

b)Genneva is legit (0.1% chance)

If a) is true, at least you ONLY lose 20% of your investments.

If b) is true, then I will start a company “Bonnanza” and promise you all 3% / month. All ex-Genneva clients and agents are welcome to join. I will offer 20 tiers commission sharing scheme and endless cashflow for your lifetime. My business advantage would be selling you silver bullion at 40% mark-up and offer you almost twice the return of Genneva.

Either way, Genneva is gone case.

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goof says 14 years ago

P.S.: between you and me, if i were you, i would stop posting. the more you guys post and so obviously try to impersonate an independent voice, the more contrived and silly you make yourselves sound.

You ain’t doing no favors for Genneva, who is already knee deep in the brown stuff.

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xeyrbrat says 14 years ago

any agent from genneva here pls email me at [email protected].

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xeyrbrat says 14 years ago

just to share abit. i did invest in a company that was also raided by BNM. Its common in malaysia for company to get investigated. Anyways i still got my returns from that land investment. Thinking of puting some money into genneva’s gold after reading this blog/forum:).

Thanks guys for the insights!!

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goof says 14 years ago

You genneva agents don’t have to waste your breath and distract the issue about ‘competitors’ and ‘agendas’.

all you have to do is to prove us wrong with facts, instead of threats or namecalling, or about kiasu/kiasism.

so what if genneva as you claim has been around for 1-2 years? even in madoff’s ponzi scheme the early subscribers in the initial years got their money back. it’s those that entered subsequently that got ripped off.

have a discourse with some substance please, otherwise, you really need to get a life and a proper job – stop messing with people’s savings

have facts and argue with conviction – otherwise how can anyone trust hard earned money to a bunch of hacks who cannot even string together a proper sentence, much less a discourse

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DeadBecauseOfRumours says 14 years ago

This forum is a sham.

The aim is to close down genneva.

Don’t be suckered to explain logic to you know who.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

EXACTLY THE SAME STORYLINE AS SUNSHINE EMPIRE!!!!

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sun says 14 years ago

hai groof!

people that who join GV thier money a lot , they also know what will happen one of the day! All investment like gamble., either win or lose!! But in this world poeple like u (hokkian say- “bo nui” ) is very “kia su” and only know to bark non stop & jealous people
.

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Benny says 14 years ago

Genneva,

IMPORTANT UPDATES : 24th July 2009Dear agents and customers of Genneva Sdn Bhd

On behalf of the Company, we wish to thank you for your patience and support during these difficult times that the company is going through.

We wish to assure you that the management and staff of the Company are working round the clock to resolve the present situation.

The company has consulted its solicitors and after perusing the documents of the Company, our counsel is of the opinion that the Company has not committed any offence.

In this regard, our solicitors will be making a presentation to Bank Negara Malaysia.

As investigation is still on-going, the Company has been advised by its solicitors not to make any comment which may affect Bank Negara Malaysia’s investigation.

The Company has fully co-operated with Bank Negara Malaysia in the investigation and will continue to provide all assistance as and when required.

The Company wishes to emphasise that it is a genuine company trading in physical gold products and the Company pledges to honour all its commitments to its customers.

Please be informed that in light of the investigation, the Company will not be engaging in any business transaction. Nevertheless, the Company will continue to be in operation and our offices are opened as usual.

We appeal to all our agents and customers to continue to be patient until Bank Negara Malaysia completes its investigation.

Your kind understanding and support is greatly appreciated.

Thank you
The Management

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LittleGold says 14 years ago

damn, i found another website similar thing, thegoldlabel.com, exactly the same thing, not sure why i only saw ppl here talk other but not this one… too good to be true… but it is always depend on what the real ppl inside.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

anyone who has taken the effort to keep him/herself updated of scams will recognise the similarity of events that have transpired.

EXACTLY from the part where someone first picks out something fishy (and get retorted by agents)…. right down to when the scheme is EXPOSED (and still encounter delaying/denial tactics by agents).

the next part would be either:
1. people in charge flee the country due to some ‘family emergency’ or ‘personal reasons’.
2. people in charge get invited for free black bean rice.

Just go google Sunshine empire.

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HaHa says 14 years ago

Qiyo, andrew, Benny and Soso – alias “Geneva agents in disguise” –

Run, run … before the law catches up with you all !
Next time, dun talk so big … now you have to eat all your words !!!

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Benny says 14 years ago

GGI so many bark…”’

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goof says 14 years ago

Genneva malaysia says their bank accounts and assets have been frozen – these means that even if they wanted to cash out now, malaysian investors are stuck.

Singapore investors you still have a chance! Quick cash out before you are too late!

But i suspect that you also can’t- genneva will use the excuse that their malaysian HQ has all the money, etc etc.

Good luck to you but it’s a real shame you’ve fallen for genneva’s tricks.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Yup, better rush to cash in your expensive gold bars today at their East Coast Condo address. Remember that in their contract with you, they will only honor the buyback if their physical office is open.

Everyone who is related to Genneva will have to go through the classic five stages of grieve:

1)Denial: NO, this is NOT a scam!

2)Anger: Oh, how dare you say I am part of a scam, I will kill you!

3)Bargaining: Please, please, just let me have my commission back…. I wont tell anyone anything….

4)Depression: Sh*t, what should I do? I will be ruined! (grabbing the beer bottle…. gulp….)

5)Acceptance: Ok, ok, it is a scam. Nevermind, I am not the starter. Many smart people have fallen for it. Life goes on…. oh, luckily I still have the gold bar, at least 80% of my investment is safe. (hugging the bar…)

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iamme says 14 years ago

tis is the massage from genneva website

IMPORTANT UPDATE: 21 JULY 2009
This serves to inform all our Valued Customers that Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced an investigation into GENNEVA Sdn Bhd on 21st July, 2009 under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities.

In view of the above investigation, our bank accounts have been frozen and our cash and Gold stocks have been sealed temporarily. Our director’s personal bank accounts have also been frozen.

GENNEVA is cooperating fully with Bank Negara Malaysia on the above investigations and we would like to assure all our Valued Customers on our commitment to protect their purchases with our company.

The Management would like to extend a big thank you to all Valued Customers for their kind understanding and we apologized for any inconveniences caused in relation to the above investigation.

We look forward to be of service to you again soon.

Meanwhile, please do not hesitate to contact us via email at [email protected] should you need any clarifications on the above.

Please continue to visit our website http://www.genneva.com for news update.

Thank you
The Management

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Benny says 14 years ago

Etika Eams

23 Julai 2009,
11 pagi Kenyataan Akhbar Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd pada 22 Julai 2009

Pada 21 Julai 2009 (Selasa), Unit Penyiasatan Khas, Bank Negara Malaysia telah menjalankan siasatan ke atas syarikat Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd (EEESB) kerana terdapat beberapa syarikat berkaitan emas yang dipercayai menjalankan aktiviti pengambilan deposit secara haram.

EEESB telah memberikan kerjasama penuh kepada pihak BNM menjalankan siasatan. EEESB yakin dan percaya bahawa tiada sebarang aktiviti tidak sah telah dilakukan sepanjang ianya menjalankan perniagaan sejak Mei 2007. Kenyataan ini adalah berdasarkan kepada fakta-fakta berikut :

EEESB adalah sebuah syarikat “professional trader” yang menjual dan BUKAN melabur emas. Pelanggan menerima emas dari setiap pembelian. Semua urusniaga pembelian emas antara pelanggan dengan EEESB yang mana emas fizikal (dan bukan pelaburan emas) diserahkan kepada pelanggan berserta dengan resit pembelian, aku janji aqad, surat perjanjian dan sijil ketulenan. Pembelian cara ini adalah sama seperti pembelian di mana-mana kedai emas di Malaysia;

Pada 28/08/2008, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menghantar surat rasmi berserta dokumen-dokumen penting seperti model perniagaan, analisis risiko, pengurusan risiko, maklumat pembekal, dan lain-lain maklumat penting kepada Jabatan Pentadbiran Pertukaran Asing (JPPA), Bank Negara Malaysia. Sebagai balasan, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menerima satu surat yang ditandatangani oleh Pengarah JPPA Bank Negara Malaysia pada 11 September 2008 yang membenarkan EEESB untuk menjalankan aktiviti perdagangan emas fizikal termasuk membeli, meminjam, menjual, dan mengeksport, (Sila rujuk Lampiran A);

Walaupun surat dari JPPA telah dikeluarkan, EEESB telah mengambil langkah proaktif dengan menghantar surat rasmi berserta dokumen-dokumen penting seperti yang dinyatakan pada para 2 di atas kepada Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia untuk mendapatkan pandangan dan nasihat berkenaan model perniagaan yang dijalankan oleh Etika Emas. Ianya telah dihantar pada 14 November 2008. Walau bagaimanapun, EEESB tidak menerima sebarang jawapan dari Bank Negara Malaysia sehinggalah peguam syarikat menghantar sekali lagi dokumen-dokumen berkenaan pada Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia pada 10 Mac 2009. Sebagai balasan, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menerima satu surat yang ditandatangani oleh Pengarah Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia pada 2 April 2009. Walau bagaimanapun, surat jawapan yang diberikan oleh Jabatan Undang-Undang BNM (Sila rujuk Lampiran B) tidak menyatakan secara khusus sama ada model perniagaan yang dijalankan oleh EEESB bercanggah dengan mana-mana akta di bawah seliaan BNM;

Berdasarkan senario dari para 1 hingga para 3, EEESB telah mengambil keputusan untuk menjalankan model perniagaan (sila rujuk lampiran C) di bawah naungan Koperasi Etika Emas Malaysia Berhad (KEEMB), sebuah entiti yang bernaung di bawah Kementerian Perdagangan Dalam Negeri, Koperasi dan Kepenggunaan (KPDNKK). Berdasarkan perkara 11 (1) di bawah Undang-Undang Kecil KEEMB, keanggotaan koperasi secara khusus adalah terbuka kepada semua pelanggan-pelanggan, pekerja-pekerja, ahli keluarga, serta subsidiari dan syarikat bersekutu Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd;
Berdasarkan kronologi di atas, EEESB telah menjalankan semua tanggungjawab sebagai warga korporat yang bertanggungjawab penuh kepada pelanggannya dan pihak berwajib dengan merujuk kepada semua syarat dan keperluan institusi, badan dan pihak yang terlibat di dalam perniagaan kami dan sehingga kini kesemua institusi termasuk BNM, melalui beberapa siri perjumpaaan dan nasihat telah dapat memantapkan modus operadi dan aktiviti perniagaan EEESB. Kami bekerjasama dan mengalukan siasatan rutin BNM ke atas peniaga-peniaga emas untuk memberi keyakinan kepada pelanggan, pembeli emas dan pihak awam supaya tiada perkara-perkara terlarang seperti “illegal deposit taking” dan “money laundering” berlaku.

Perlu ditekankan di sini bahawa EEESB hanya menjalankan urusan jual-beli emas fizikal 999.9. Kami membantu memberi khidmat nasihat kepada para pelanggan kami tentang kaedah menambahkan aset emas mereka dengan menggunakan institusi ar-rahnu yang berdaftar sebagai mekanisma. Bersama-sama ini, kami edarkan model perniagaan yang kami jalankan bersama rakan niaga dan institusi Ar-Rahnu untuk maklumat Tuan/Puan. (sila rujuk lampiran C);

Kami terpanggil untuk memberikan kenyataan akhbar ini supaya EEESB diperiksa secara profesional dengan mengambil kira semua inisiatif dan komitmen yang telah kami tunjukkan dari awal dan meminta agar findings yang tepat dikeluarkan oleh BNM. Tindakan BNM semalam diharap tidak akan menjejaskan kredibiliti dan keyakinan pelanggan terhadap EEESB.

Sekian, terima kasih

Mohd Amin Bin Supian
Presiden, Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd

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soso says 14 years ago

I couldn’t agree with Andrew more. if you guys choose to think con, sure you are conned- even without doing anything. Period.

If you are so clever, don’t buy anything coz’ can get conned too – the profit margin.

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andrew says 14 years ago

Intheknow;

“we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED.”

MAYBE YOU WILL BE HAPPIER IF YOU PREVENT EVERYONE FROM GOING OUT SO NOBODY GET KILLED ON THE ROAD DUE TO THE DAILY ACCIDENTS

i don’t know about you… but i have a conscious. How would you feel if the person CONNED is your mother father sister brother or relatives?

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO STOP YOUR RELATIVE FROM BEING ‘CONNED’ IF ITS A CON.(YOU ARE NOT QUILTY UNTIL PROVEN)
IN THE FIRST PLACE, ANY OF YOUR PEOPLE GOT CONNED IN GENNEVA?
WHO ARE YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE TO GO ROUND TELLING WHAT’S RIGHT AND WHAT’S CON?

‘still dare to bring out KARMA? Genneva and their agents, if proven to be a scam, WILL BURN IN HELL.’

HE WHO CURSE WILL BE CURSED HIMSELF.

stop giving lame excuses like Genneva closed down because of complains. Only a moron will believe that.

NORMALLY, WHEN AN INVESTOR/CLIENT IS NOT PAID WHAT WAS PROMISED THEN THE RELEVANT AUTHORITIES WILL CHECK ON THE GENUINE COMPLAIN, BUT IF OTHERS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO THAT DO NOT KNOW GET CONNED ARE EITHER JEALOUS OR TOO BUSYBODY.

MAYBE U CAN ADVISE EVERYONE D FOLLOWING:
1) DON’T GO OUT, YOU GET KNOCK DOWN.
2) DON’T GO TO WORK, YOUR EMPLOYER WILL USE YOU.
3) DON’T EAT OUTSIDE, YOU MAY GET POISON.
4) DON’T MAKE SO MUCH MONEY, U GET ROBBED/KIDNAP
5) DON’T DO THIS AND DO THAT,ETC

SO IF NO MONEY/FOOD YOU HELP?

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Plane89 says 14 years ago

Hey,

Has Genneva closed down? I haven’t heard any news about that. I only heard that the Malaysian government is doing some investigation. Does anyone know the meaning of investigation?
I really don’t think so because you guys seems to celebrating as if Genneva is gone for good. Let’s not be too naive okay, it is good that the government is doing something, so lets not jump to conclusion…
Furthermore, it can only be considered as a scam if someone is being cheated using their scheme. So far, has anyone not received what was promised by Genneva? Anyone’s hard earned cash being cheated? If the answer is yes then please report this to the authority if not then please just wait for the investigation’s result to be out.
So please, Intheknow and GoldClubAsia, don’t act as if you guys were the heroes here. Nothing has been confirmed so please shut your mouth. Don’t say things as if everyone here in this forum are morons except both of you.

“we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED”

Has anyone actually being conned before you guys joined the forum ? What do you mean that you prevented “MORE” people from being conned? Like I said, if someone is actually conned by Genneva, please voice up and let everyone knows that Genneva is indeed a scam and you will also speed up the investigation work of the authorities. I am sure everyone here will thank you for that esp Intheknow, but if no one has ever been conned by Genneva then please just let the authorities to carry out the investigation and STOP JUDGING !!

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Benny says 14 years ago

why i keep hear the bark….????

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goof says 14 years ago

And if you wanna see who runs genneva, download this http://www.mobilecomsolution.com/GENNEVA_GOLD.ppt

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED.

i don’t know about you… but i have a conscious. How would you feel if the person CONNED is your mother father sister brother or relatives?

still dare to bring out KARMA? Genneva and their agents, if proven to be a scam, WILL BURN IN HELL.

stop giving lame excuses like Genneva closed down because of complains. Only a moron will believe that.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Simple guide for Genneva investors:

1) file claim for your guaranteed buyback ASAP, you MIGHT still get ALL of your money back here in SG before CAD close them down

2) file police report IMMEDIATELY if Genneva give you any kind of excuses NOT to refund you

3) pay $5 to do an ACRA search on Genneva so you know who you should be filing your claims against. Hint: those infos on your invoices are mostly not accurate, designed to mislead you.

4) if they close their office @ Orchard Towers, go to their registered address first, then file police report there on site.

5) pls remember: they will do all they can to assure you that there is NOTHING wrong with a raid on them in Malaysia etc… It’s all just delay tactic to buy themselves some time. If you wait, you will not see your money again. DO IT NOW! Get your money back TODAY!!!!

6) if not sure about what to do, can always file police report first, at least you will have a better chance of recovering your money later if all is seized by CAD. Treat this like a car accident.

7) pls remember: the gold in your hand only covers your losses regarding the gold spot price component of your investment, not the whole sum!!! Don’t think for a second that because the gold will go up in price would cover your losses with Genneva. This scam was always about the 20% premium above gold. Get it back from them ASAP!

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Illegal deposit taking & money laundering are serious offenses here in SG. Millions in fines and people go to jail for LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time for that!

Genneva is NOT a legal business. It was set up from the start as a scam and we should all unit as gold investors to fight scammers.

To all Genneva agents: please google about “illegal deposit taking” to wise up!!!! RUN before you are caught as well!!!!

For a taste of what is still to come:

http://politics.sgforums.com/users/232505/posts

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Benny says 14 years ago

only intheknow n goldclubasia 2 people chat only…we don care about them.. (little people) ^_”

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andrew says 14 years ago

I wonder why some people are very happy businesses closed due to their judgement. Hey, you can’t go round and complain if you have not invested or lost anything in any venture, ya?

Just like someone just mentioned about interests is 4% in Msia bank and trying to misled everyone. Now tell me which bank pays you this 4%?

There are always ‘sio ren'(little people) who like to see company closed and will complain to the authorities. Why, nothing better to do?

Thousand thanks to the one who make the official complain and make life difficult for all investors.
If Genneva closed and if not better MYOB!!!!!!! (You know got Kama one?)

1) If Genneva closed (due to outsiders complaining….dunno for what, or maybe cannot tahan see others make some money) then thanks to them for making life miserable for us and the Company.

2) If no closed, then better u join opposition parties and fight for the people rights rather than busybody here.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Well done! Applause! The Malaysians deserve my fullest respect for this swift action! Now it’s time for MAS/CAD to make their moves!

Warning to all Genneva investors: better pull ALL of your funds NOW before its been taken into custody of the investigators.

Warning to all Genneva agents: even if you did not know this is a scam, better get out and erase your connections to Genneva asap.

Remember that if you are found with Heroin in your luggage at the airport, even if someone put into it without letting you know, you will still be terminated.

Congrats to all the people here who supported our cause of TRUTH.

Special thanks to the blog owner for letting this thread becoming a beacon of light for the new gold investors.

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Benny says 14 years ago

The STAR News

Wednesday July 22, 2009
Bank Negara probes two firms after complaints

PETALING JAYA: Bank Negara Malaysia (BNM) is investigating Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd on suspicion of conducting illegal deposit-taking activities.

The central bank said in a statement posted on its website yesterday that it raided the premises of Genneva and Etika Emas in Klang Valley yesterday following public complaints.

Officials from the two companies say that they are giving full cooperation to the central bank investigators.

Etika Emas president Mohd Amin Supian said he was surprised when Bank Negara officers’ visited his company.

He said that he was told that the visit was a routine check on the business operation.

He added that Etika Emas was a legitimate business dealing in physical gold.

A Genneva official, who did not want to be named, declined to comment except that his company was cooperating with Bank Negara.

Last week, Genneva senior general manager Tony Yao in a response to a StarProbe article said that his company’s business model is not a Ponzi scheme.

He explained that the company sold gold coins and bars to the public at a 5% discount to the prices set by the Federation of Goldsmiths and Jewellers Asso­ciations of Malaysia.

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Benny says 14 years ago

This is from Etika Emas

****Halaman web utama Etika Emas akan ditutup sementara untuk memberi laluan kepada sorotan perkembangan sisatan Bank Negara terhadap Etika Emas****

22 Julai 2009,
5 petang Pihak Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd telah mengadakan kenyataan akhbar bertempat di Malaysia Institute of Management pada jam 3 hingga 4.30 petang yang dihadiri antaranya oleh TV3, Bernama dan The Star. Menurut sumber TV3, rakaman akan disiarkan Buletin Utama malam ini. ***Salinan kenyataan akhbar akan dipaparkan kemudian.***

21 Julai 2009,
9 malam Pihak Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd akan mengadakan kenyatan akhbar pada 22 Julai jam 3.00 petang untuk menafikan bahawa Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd terlibat dalam pengambilan wang deposit haram.

21 Julai 2009,
8 malam Buletin Utama telah menyiarkan berita bahawa Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd dipercayai telah mengambil wang deposit haram dan sedang disiasat oleh BNM dibawah Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).

21 Julai 2009, 11.00 pagi Premis Etika Emas di Holiday Villa telah didatangi oleh Unit Siasatan Khas Bank Negara diketuai oleh pegawai penyiasat Encik Aziz. Siasatan telah berlanjutan sehingga pukul 5 petang. Dalam proses ini beberapa dokumen telah diambil untuk membantu siasatan.

****Kami berharap pelanggan Etika Emas Estet Sdn. Bhd. tidak membuat sebarang spekulasi dan menunggu berita dan maklumat dari halaman web ini dari semasa ke semasa. Sekian terima kasih.****

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goof says 14 years ago

Well done!

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EatGoldSleepGold says 14 years ago

Checking is positive, investigate is positive so can follow right measures.

If everything is alright after, means its no more “too good to be true”. Will you guys buy?

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Voice of Reason says 14 years ago

My my… the silence from the genneva agents in light of the bank negara crackdown is deafening.

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Voice of Reason says 14 years ago

http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=8&pg=14&ac=1874

Bank Negara Malaysia Investigates Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd
Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced investigations into Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities in breach of subsection 25(1) of the Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).

The raids on Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd were conducted today at their premises in Klang Valley following information received from members of the public.

Members of the public are reminded to be cautious of deposit taking schemes and investment schemes offered through various channels such as the internet, phone calls, or seminars conducted by individuals or companies that are not licensed or approved by the relevant authorities.

Members of the public may refer to the list of licensed institutions authorized to accept deposits which is available on Bank Negara Malaysia’s website ( http://www.bnm.gov.my).

For further enquiries, members of the public can contact Bank Negara Malaysia at the following contact points:

BNMTELELINK (Customer Service Call Centre)
Tel: 1-300-88-5465
Fax: 03-21741515
Email: [email protected]

BNMLINK (Customer Service Walk-In-Centre)
Block D, Bank Negara Malaysia ,
Jalan Dato’ Onn, 50480, Kuala Lumpur
(Business hours: Monday-Friday, 9.00 am – 5.00 pm)

Bank Negara Malaysia
21 July 2009

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

山巴老。。这里是让我们来讨论我们的想法。。

你算老几？？

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Benny says 14 years ago

没投资的别在这里说有的没的。。你不烦啊。。！！！

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facts says 14 years ago

My common sense tells me that UOB would have love to sell you Gold at 20% mark up just like Genneva did. What is it so unique and special about Genneva that they are the only one doing these business when people in the gold and mining industry who had been in these business for yons never even consider using such a “lucrative” business model?

This itself already raise a red flag.

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Intheknow says 14 years ago

goof… i think what you said made a lot of sense. thanks for typing your views all out.

I just hope that potential investors who read all the posts will realise the truth about Genneva.

If they choose to go in with their eyes open, there is nothing we can do. Afterall, Genneva (as far as I know) is indeed still paying out the returns as promised.

Let’s wait and see how long it will last.

From the replies from Securities Commission of Malaysia and Bank Negara, I get the impression that they are investigating Genneva but there is nothing much the law can do against Genneva now. Somewhat of a loophole in law with regards to the structuring of their business.

MAS has yet to response.

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goof says 14 years ago

You know the cool thing about this blog? It’s now ranked #2 in global Google rankings if you search the keyword ‘genneva’

At least now, before investors make rash decisions, they can google, stumble across this blog post, and read the discussions here. and hopefully, the arguments here create enough talking points that they start taking a step back, and start asking smart questions before making rash decisions.

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goof says 14 years ago

Key Difference in UOB vs Genneva gold

UOB:
– Gold bullion at about 15-25% less than goldsmith/pawnbroker rates in both Singapore and Malaysia, or about 10% above London SPOT
– Your receipt allows you to freely sell back to UOB at prevailing published rates pegged to London SPOT.
– If the price of gold rises, you make
– If gold rises by a lot today, i can immediately go to UOB tomorrow and get cash

Genneva:
– You pay 20% over UOB sell prices for the same bullion if you bought direct from UOB
– You will have difficulty selling to UOB w/o a receipt when Genneva folds
– If the price of gold rises, you make on the bullion you have. But your 20% (minus whatever ‘rebates’ you have gotten) is still stuck with Genneva
– If gold rises by a lot today, i have to wait 97 days before i can get my money from Genneva. They might even give me the proceeds in cheque – i do hope the cheque clears
– If i choose not to sell back to Genneva, i lost my 20% premium. And UOB might refuse to buy from me, leaving me no choice but to sell to pawnshops and goldsmiths at a further 20% discount. Thus my total losses from this exercise might hit 40% at the end of the day.

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goof says 14 years ago

Thanks Qiyo. Actually i am one of the smartest in this forum – at least much smarter than the morons that choose to ignore the fallacies of genneva, and continue to buy at an 18% markup on the same gold they can buy at Menara UOB in KL, or UOB Plaza in SG.

But i must agree with you – those genneva customers that enter early might just be able to break even before the scheme unravels. If you enter now, you will just be able to break even in 9 months assuming they are still around. Thus you’ll only start making any profit on your principal AFTER 9 months. Now throw in that 97 day waiting period before you get your money back, you’re looking at a vesting period of about 1 year before you’re clear.

So to those that have already bought genneva gold at a premium – keep your fingers crossed mates.

For potential genneva purchasers, here’s what an e.g. $100k ‘investment’ is looking at:

– you just paid $100k for something worth $80k if you spent RM/$10 on a cab ride to UOB and bought PAMP gold over the counter
– you’re effective giving away $20k away upfront, which reduces every month by 2%. You’ll get back this $20k in about 12 months due to their 97 day waiting period
– you’re giving away $20k to a limited liability company, registered in a condo, backed by an unknown with zero track record in the fiscal world, who really can’t even string proper grammatical sentences
– and in Singapore, because you bought from these guys and don’t have a UOB receipt, you can’t easily sell back to the bank and will have to sell for even less at the pawnshops. That or you can pray that genneva will still be around at breakeven in 9 months, and wait 3 months for your cash to arrive

Harvard grads with ferrarris living in posh penthouses screwed up their clients investments. Will you trust this bunch of hacks with your investment? Esp after they are demanding 20% upfront and state nothing in their receipts? it’s like going to a mamak stall and asking the uncle to buy 10 contracts of September Brent with a stoploss mechanism mirrored on Topix.

Genneva can NEVER substitute fixed deposits. Nothing that penalizes the principal investment at 20% upfront, which only breaks-even from month 9, and a wait of 3 months can substitute a fixed deposit.

Banks in Singapore offer SGD deposits to private banking customers at 1.85% per annum. Banks in Malaysia offer 4.215% to pb customers. High net worth individuals, please consult with your private banker

For the rest, save your hard earned money. If you want an inflation-hedge, go to UOB and buy gold and keep the receipt. when you want to sell, bring your gold and receipt to UOB to sell.

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goof says 14 years ago

the attempts by genneva supporters/agents like qiyo, AC and many many others to deflect the attention away from how the ponzi scheme works is really entertaining.

Extremely well structured scheme. They buy retail gold bullion from UOB, add a 20% markup, and then proclaim that they are selling at 5% discount from goldsmith prices.

Like GCA and may others have said. The entire point of genneva’s scheme is to target this 20% premium. And this 90 day waiting period buyback guarantee reduces the effective yield per purchase to 0.67%.

Legally, these guys will never get caught. They sell openly to morons at an 18% premium per contract of sale, and to get that ‘24%’ annuak yield effectively means that genneva buys back, and resells 12 contracts of the same piece of bullion at an 18% premium everytime.

So if the moron complains, or when genneva effectively folds – they are liable for nothing.

As 2nd hand dealers, they can tell the CAD “well, i sold 2nd hand gold which i bought first hand from UOB to the moron that willingly bought it from me for an 18% premium. The following month, he returned the piece and i refunded him what he paid for and sold him another piece of gold for an 18% premium again. I didn’t promise him a stable rate of return of 2% per month. I’m just selling gold to morons at an 18% premium when they could have just gotten it from UOB much less if they weren’t that dumb”

All that nonsense about gold vs inflation, physical gold as protection etc etc is just distraction and noise to distort the fact that they are selling gold at an 18% premium, and if you don’t want to continue with them, your effective yield is 0.67% per month. i suspect that when the 97 days have passed, some nonsense will crop up and you will get less than what you paid for, assuming gold prices stay the same.

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InterestInGold says 14 years ago

Assuming that Genneva is not contravening any legal issues (new gold / promise of interest / etc), it appears that the main scenarios for Genneva’s customers are as follows:-

1. Gold uptrend
2. Gold stable
3. Gold downtrend

In (1), if gold reaches GoldClubAsia’s $1165 target at 31.12.09, that represents a 24% upside to current prices of $940, in 6 months, and pays out 2%/month for 6 months, that would represent asset appreciation less rebate of ~6-12% of the base of funds that customers have placed with Genneva. Seems eminently likely that Genneva can continue to have a going business, with the option of liquidating on the open market if there is a need for liquidity.

In (2) & (3), if Genneva’s premium margins are 20% vs the 2% rebate, then as long as >10% of its base does not return the gold each month, then margin revenues cover rebate payments. If the margins are larger, then a smaller proportion of the base is needed to retain the gold.

Genneva’s product (2nd hand gold bullion with buy-back guarantee) will not appeal to bullish gold investors who would rather pocket the full upside to uptrend gold.

Genneva’s product seems designed to appeal to gold novices, who are able to handle some risk (limited portion of their portfolios in gold), and gain Genneva’s upside guarantee, comparatively to taking the full volatility of stocks/commodities/etc – ie, rather than timing the market/going long, to let Genneva go long, while taking the Genneva’s “guarantee” of 2% rebate per month.

Hence, GoldClubAsia and large institutions will pass over Genneva, just because they would rather take the full upside, and are able to, because of their capitalisation level, as compared to retail investors.

The uptrend scenario is reasonably rosy for both Genneva and its customers. The flat/downtrend scenarios or a Genneva default scenario are uncertain. It would appear reasonable to assume that Genneva will discontinue its product if gold futures turn flat/down, so customers should not count on a permanent 2%/month rebate.

2 main risks remain – insufficient permanent “sales” with a too flat uptrend coupled with a liquidity run. Likely to be mitigated by the 30+7D structure, that limits the gold returns to a fraction of the outstanding gold at any point of time. If gold prices are rangebound for extended periods (6-12 months?), Genneva’s 2%/month payouts might then start to be funded by new customers (a la ponzi!).

All this assumes that Genneva has no other revenue channels apart from its main product of gold with buy-back guarantee.

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

To andrew: non of your points are valid, I have no products to sell to anyone. I have repeated here many times that I am a professional COMEX gold trader. GoldClubAsia.com is a free website for people to buy/sell bullion from/to eachother. There is no commission/costs involved for any parties. Its discussion forum is also free for anyone to join. I don’t even know who is exactly selling/buying gold bullion on goldclubasia.com. It’s usage is spread by word of mouth because people usually can get a big portion of their 7% GST back from the next private buyer. This is better than selling it back to UOB.

To AC: Legally speaking, Genneva is not licensed to sell any kind of products that promises interests payment here in SG without been licensed by MAS. Also, selling brand new gold bullion to retail customers need to be licensed as well. (I don’t know about the facts in Malaysia)

I suspect that the advertised CID registration is as second hand goods buyer, like those Arang Gunis.

If Genneva simply just sell gold bullion at overinflated prices to its customers, you might still get away with it.

The key is the 24% annual payout. This is the ONLY reason why people would consider buying your gold bullion at inflated price.

This is the component of your business model that I have been warning people about, not the gold bullion itself.

Yes, selling gold bullion at 20% premium over spot is definitely sustainable.

No, promising 24% per year payout without proper licensing is ILLEGAL and NOT SUSTAINABLE.

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blursotong says 14 years ago

Intheknow,

did u receive any reply from MAS? Malaysia authorities already responded and our world class gahmen still haven’t make a response?

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ESSO says 14 years ago

Wednesday July 15, 2009
Genneva sells gold and is not a ponzi scheme, says firm

PETALING JAYA: Genneva Sdn Bhd, a company that sells gold coins and bars to the public, said its business model is not a fraudulent investment operation.

“There may be Ponzi schemes in the market but it is obvious that Genneva is not one of them,” group senior manager Tony Yao said.

“We have a uniquely profitable, viable and sustainable business because our product which is gold is a safe haven in any time of uncertainty and is not subject to wild fluctuations in price in the world markets,” he said in a statement in response to Monday’s StarProbe article.

He said Genneva’s business model “enables customers to purchase physical gold at a discount” compared to domestic market prices.

The company also provided a conditional buy-back guarantee for the purchase at the same price that the customer had paid for the gold.

“What we do is we share our profits with our customers,” Yao said.

He said Genneva sources its gold needs from the international market, where prices can be lower by as much as 17% compared to the recommended retail selling prices by the Federation of Goldsmiths and Jewellers Associations of Malaysia.

The firm then sells its own issued gold coins and bars to the public at a discount compared with prevailing market prices set by the federation. It still would make a profit on these sales.

“We also provide a conditional buy back guarantee for our purchasers who may want to resell their gold after buying it. We are able to generate continuous income from our profits made from trading gold to enable us to repurchase gold from our customers if they wish to sell it back to us,” Yao said.

Under the scheme, Genneva’s obligation is to buy back the gold at the same price without discount after a so-called 90-day holding period. There is a week’s grace to sell the gold back to Genneva. Any sale back to Genneva before or after 97 days will be at lower prices to be negotiated.

Yao said Genneva gave a discount of around 5% on the domestic market price set by the federation. The discount is paid either at the time of purchase or up to three months after that in instalments.

Yao said Genneva guaranteed the standard and purity of all gold coins issued by the company as 99.9%. This means customers can also sell their gold coins or bars purchased from Genneva at any goldsmiths that accept gold trade-ins.

“Gold is expensive to sell because goldsmiths generally give you a lower price than actual market value when they buy from customers,” Yao said.

In the statement, Genneva said the company’s business of buying and selling physical gold does not require a licence to operate from Bank Negara.

“Genneva is no more than an ordinary goldsmith shop with an extraordinary business model,” Yao said. On June 28th, the group formed Samudra-GV Sdn Bhd with “a vision to open up the gold market to Malaysians of every race and religion by making the product available to people from all walks of life.’’

“In the near future, our gold product will be rebranded as SGV Bullion,” the statement said

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facts says 14 years ago

It is a known fact that there’s a carry cost to owning physical gold. it basic investment 101.

To guarantee 2%/mth to long physical Gold without downside participation defies investment economics.

Why waste your time and effort selling to uncles and aunties when you have a ready pool of clients like the hedge funds as perhaps even Temasek Holdings and GIC?

GIC has a Gold and Forex team. I am sure they would be very keen to hear your proposal.

But than again, maybe you are only interested to help the poor uncles and aunties to make more money. The rich already has so much money so why help them right? Better to help the poor become poorer…oops I mean richer. hehe….

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andrew says 14 years ago

To Goldclubasia:

1) ‘All good things must come to an end…’

Yours also will come to an end….dunno when? Unless yours no good la, ya?

2) Especially those too good to be true……

Dunno your ‘Biz’ under …Too good to be true, or Better than …too good to be true?

3) From what you are ‘bad mouthing’ Genneva, I think indirectly you maybe hitting at All goldsmith shop also.

They (goldsmith shop) buy gold bar and sell to customers at ‘Fixed gold price) then plus ‘freight charges/some claim somthing else’. Next day you sell back to them they deduct 15 to 25%. Immediate lost also, guaranteed risk.

U keep gold bar 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 years, etc….they no give 1 cent also, how?

4) You keep telling all the no good about ‘G’ and ask people to buy your product/service and claim yours 100% good…..

You know how many of my would be clients for ‘G’ turn me away just because of your ‘bad mouth’?

Come on la, be more professional…. you are just like going to people shop outside and trying to ask customers ‘Don’t buy from them, buy from me.’

Sincerely, I hope your biz last more than 30 years otherwise your can be considered a scam also la. (Maybe better than Madoff)

With your kind of knowledge and time spend here, I think you could have made tons of money already, unless you got nothing better to do.

I, 100% don’t like to buy from people like you, risk or no risk…. honestly, no offend Sir!

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facts says 14 years ago

One more point to add, if gold rally 50% , you make only 2%. If gold collapse 50% and Genneva can’t raise enough cash to redeem all investors gold, your investment loss is 70% (50+20).

So, 2% maximum upside versus potential opportunity cost if gold rallies PLUS potential capital loss if gold collapse (and Genneva defaults), hmmmm……..

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facts says 14 years ago

GoldClubAsia,

As long as nobody complaints and everyone continues to get their payout, the authorities and enforcement office here in Singapore will adopt hands off approach.

But all goods things must come to an end at some point in time, especially those too good to be true. We have seen it all….PIPS, GINS, 12DailyPro, Swiss Cash,Oilpods, Sunshine Empire, etc etc.

Statistically speaking most of these program last an average of about +/-2 yrs before it crumbles. Let see how long this one last…..

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

Hi facts,

I would be very surprised if Genneva would ever take in any gold from sellers who did not buy from them at their inflated price.

You nailed it absolutely here. The greed for the 2%/month return gets hold the investor. The gold bar in their hand is no more than a confidence carrier.

It is also true that regardless the guaranteed buyback program by Genneva, the holder of the actual metal is always exposed to gold price fluctuation. After all, their buyback program is limited to only just one week and only during their office opening hours.

It is very simple for Genneva to default on this promise. They do not even need to fold their operations here. All they have to do is to declare a company office holiday for 1 months and probably all promises are expired by then.

They are very smart in writing their invoices. You actually never really paid for the guaranteed buyback. Their invoice only shows the gold, not their put option. Since you definitely received the gold, you will never be able to claim anything from them.

One more thing: unlike in Malaysia, it is illegal to make a market for new investment grade bullion product in Singapore. They are probably registered as a scrap gold operation at best. Definitely not MAS registered bullion dealers. After all, how do they verify the source of the fund of their buyers regarding anti-money launder laws here.

Btw, my friend who went there yesterday got a sms invite to join their marketing event this week. I don’t think he will go though. He wanted to buy 1 Kilo gold and now just bought today from UOB.

My year end target for gold by 31.Dec.09 is $1165. This will not make Genneva any more legit though. Best way to buy gold is still to buy physical gold as close to spot as you possibly can.

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facts says 14 years ago

The gold bar from UOB is exactly the same thing as those by this company.

Here’s UOB daily pricing. they make 2 way market:
https://uniservices1.uobgroup.com/secure/online_rates/gold_and_silver_prices.jsp?&#

Compare the price disparity with what Genneva. This is risk free arbitrage. Buy low at spot price and sell high at jeweller price.

Their guarantee buy back with 2% premium will continue as long as there are new investors buying over the bullion from them at their prevailing jeweller price.

As far as the less informed investors are concern, they dont really care much about having to pay premium for the same bullion because of the attractive 2% mthly return, which certainly beats buying the bullion for 20% cheaper but expose to risk of gold price going lower.

So, greed get the better of them, couple with the comfort that they are holding on to a piece of 24k gold bar gives them the confidence to commit into this investment.

The mentality is simple, worst case scenario if the company folds, the gold bar is in my possession.
The only problem is that you will have to wait for gold prices to rally 20% or more before you can sell it to breakeven, if the company bellies up and left you carrying the gold bar.

My take on this, buy gold from UOB and sell it to Genneva at 5% higher for a quick flip…..risk free arbitrage and no need to wait for 1 mth!! LOL!!!

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GoldClubAsia says 14 years ago

suggestion to all Genneva investors:

1) buy your bullion from UOB plaza at 7.5% above spot

2) put 5% additional fund into any of those HYIPS online, starting capital is usually just $10 and their payout rate is better than Genneva

3) say good bye to your HYIP money, but your losses will be covered by the gold you bought from UOB

Look, I have just saved you 7.5% of your original capital!

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Interesting says 14 years ago

Reading this whole list of comments is really informative and entertaining. But in my opinion, im more convinced by comments and replies of GoldClubAsia and Intheknow as they seems more supported with facts and focused on this company/ topic/ scheme, actively soughting answers from both the company’s available information and local legal sources. Like to say thank you — even if no other people on the forum is convinced, i am one forum reader that appreciate your insights. Thanks!

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